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> the macOS implementation was buggy and slow This is actually another lie that has somehow been retconned into the collective narrative. Baffling. I was a pr

> the macOS implementation was buggy and slow This is actually another lie that has somehow been retconned into the collective narrative. Baffling. I was a professional Flash developer at the time, working for brands like Nike and Johnson & Johnson. We as an industry used Apple almost exclusively. This was not a common observation until after "Thoughts on Flash"

jbverschoor 5y ago
(Most?) Flash apps didn't adjust for responsive web. It was also full of security issues. Most flash applications were running at a certain FPS, instead of reacting to UI changes/redrawing. Flash was nice for games, but for the rest is was a pain in the butt. Also, look at how slow Adobe is in keeping things updated for newer platforms. I'm happy flash is dead, and I hope creative suite will follow.. Probably not though.
- rendall 5y ago
  > Flash apps didn't adjust for responsive web This was 2009. "Responsive layout" was barely a concept. Most HTML/CSS websites didn't have responsive layout. We were still figuring out all out.
  - BadOakOx 5y ago
    Maybe it was not called "Responsive layout", but it was a thing since 2004: https://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/ https://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/ Flash was as bad as Java Applets. They both tried to solve problems that couldn't be done with standard web technologies at the time. They both needed extra plugins so they could work... while everything else just works in the browsers. They have no place in web development.
  - jbverschoor 5y ago
    Maybe not responsive, but definitely fluid design.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    If by "responsive layout" one means adapting to the size of the browser window, and not specifically adapting to mobile screens, then it was fairly common in 2009. And even earlier - we just did it with tables in late 90s and early 00s. It is also true that the vast majority of web pages done in Flash did not do it.
- hansworst 5y ago
  At the time, (most?) websites didn't adjust for responsive web either. There's nothing inherent about Flash that made it impossible to support responsive layouts with it. In fact, if anything, developing with Flash gave you more control over positioning than html/css did at the time. Sure, there were downsides to Flash. It's true that many Flash-based apps/websites used more battery power than html/css stuff. But I'd argue that this is an indicator that there is a demand for rich content on the web. Since Flash was killed, we've seen a resurgence of all kinds of heavy JavaScript libraries, and forums like hackernews are full of people complaining about websites being sluggish and slow to load because of the amount of js that's being injected. Well guess what - now we've just replaced Flash with a fragmented open landscape. Is it better? Maybe - to a degree the openness of html/css/js is good for obvious reasons. But to be honest, I think the web still hasn't recovered from the blow Apple gave to the creative ecosystem that had been built up around Flash, because there still isn't a similar tool that allows you to easily build web-based rich, interactive experiences, full of animation and rich graphics, the way Flash did about 15-20 (!) years ago
dijit 5y ago
Maybe you have a bias since you worked with flash. As a flash consumer from 2001-2011 I must tell you that honestly; flash was fucking painful. Run a very weird binary blob riddled with security holes and questionable browser integrations or suffer. Yes, some things became possible (habbo hotel, flash games, video/audio before browsers supported it) but it wasn’t worth it. I very much wanted flash to die by 2006 and ran a lot of extensions to bypass flash on Linux such as the “HTML5 everywhere” browser add on that tried to force YouTube to use HTML5 video (with mixed results). I think anyone looking at flash now is romanticising the past. It was the least enjoyable thing about web browsing in the 00-s
- rendall 5y ago
  > "riddled with security holes" There it is again! That specific phrasing. Curious. [1] > "flash on Linux" Yes, Flash on Linux sucked. We're talking about macOS, and it did not suck on macOS. > Maybe you have a bias since you worked with flash. Oh, absolutely. I chose to work with Flash because it was great! But that's not really germane. I would not have wanted to work with Flash if it sucked on Apple, since that was the platform I used at the time. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30585649 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30585649
  - dijit 5y ago
    Riddled is pretty common verbiage for native English speakers when something is heavily afflicted with something which is probably why you’re seeing it everywhere. “Riddled with holes” is the original phrase, usually when referring to worn out clothing or something which has been damaged with many punctures. It’s not a conspiracy or a retcon. I think I have tweets from this period where I was extolling my frustration with YouTube specifically for requiring flash. To be fair I didn’t use Apple computers in that era so you could be right; but I did use Windows and Linux and Linux was by far the least favoured by adobe, but it still wasn’t pleasant on Windows. I bought my first MacBook in 2011 and flash was already dead by then.
    - rendall 5y ago

jbverschoor 5y ago

(Most?) Flash apps didn't adjust for responsive web. It was also full of security issues. Most flash applications were running at a certain FPS, instead of reacting to UI changes/redrawing. Flash was nice for games, but for the rest is was a pain in the butt. Also, look at how slow Adobe is in keeping things updated for newer platforms. I'm happy flash is dead, and I hope creative suite will follow.. Probably not though.

rendall 5y ago
> Flash apps didn't adjust for responsive web This was 2009. "Responsive layout" was barely a concept. Most HTML/CSS websites didn't have responsive layout. We were still figuring out all out.
- BadOakOx 5y ago
  Maybe it was not called "Responsive layout", but it was a thing since 2004: https://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/ https://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/ Flash was as bad as Java Applets. They both tried to solve problems that couldn't be done with standard web technologies at the time. They both needed extra plugins so they could work... while everything else just works in the browsers. They have no place in web development.
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  Maybe not responsive, but definitely fluid design.
- int_19h 5y ago
  If by "responsive layout" one means adapting to the size of the browser window, and not specifically adapting to mobile screens, then it was fairly common in 2009. And even earlier - we just did it with tables in late 90s and early 00s. It is also true that the vast majority of web pages done in Flash did not do it.
hansworst 5y ago
At the time, (most?) websites didn't adjust for responsive web either. There's nothing inherent about Flash that made it impossible to support responsive layouts with it. In fact, if anything, developing with Flash gave you more control over positioning than html/css did at the time. Sure, there were downsides to Flash. It's true that many Flash-based apps/websites used more battery power than html/css stuff. But I'd argue that this is an indicator that there is a demand for rich content on the web. Since Flash was killed, we've seen a resurgence of all kinds of heavy JavaScript libraries, and forums like hackernews are full of people complaining about websites being sluggish and slow to load because of the amount of js that's being injected. Well guess what - now we've just replaced Flash with a fragmented open landscape. Is it better? Maybe - to a degree the openness of html/css/js is good for obvious reasons. But to be honest, I think the web still hasn't recovered from the blow Apple gave to the creative ecosystem that had been built up around Flash, because there still isn't a similar tool that allows you to easily build web-based rich, interactive experiences, full of animation and rich graphics, the way Flash did about 15-20 (!) years ago

dijit 5y ago

Maybe you have a bias since you worked with flash. As a flash consumer from 2001-2011 I must tell you that honestly; flash was fucking painful. Run a very weird binary blob riddled with security holes and questionable browser integrations or suffer. Yes, some things became possible (habbo hotel, flash games, video/audio before browsers supported it) but it wasn’t worth it. I very much wanted flash to die by 2006 and ran a lot of extensions to bypass flash on Linux such as the “HTML5 everywhere” browser add on that tried to force YouTube to use HTML5 video (with mixed results). I think anyone looking at flash now is romanticising the past. It was the least enjoyable thing about web browsing in the 00-s

rendall 5y ago
> "riddled with security holes" There it is again! That specific phrasing. Curious. [1] > "flash on Linux" Yes, Flash on Linux sucked. We're talking about macOS, and it did not suck on macOS. > Maybe you have a bias since you worked with flash. Oh, absolutely. I chose to work with Flash because it was great! But that's not really germane. I would not have wanted to work with Flash if it sucked on Apple, since that was the platform I used at the time. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30585649 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30585649
- dijit 5y ago
  Riddled is pretty common verbiage for native English speakers when something is heavily afflicted with something which is probably why you’re seeing it everywhere. “Riddled with holes” is the original phrase, usually when referring to worn out clothing or something which has been damaged with many punctures. It’s not a conspiracy or a retcon. I think I have tweets from this period where I was extolling my frustration with YouTube specifically for requiring flash. To be fair I didn’t use Apple computers in that era so you could be right; but I did use Windows and Linux and Linux was by far the least favoured by adobe, but it still wasn’t pleasant on Windows. I bought my first MacBook in 2011 and flash was already dead by then.
  - rendall 5y ago