5 ms·

Children aren’t vegan-friendly, please explain?

genocidicbunny 5y ago
Unless carefully managed, a vegan diet has a chance of lacking some critical nutrients for the development of young children. I think a vitamin B12 deficiency is common.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  Thats the same for any infant diet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Second, breastfeeding is vegan too (if the mother consents ;) ).
  - candiodari 5y ago
    Meat/fish and byproducts are generally considered a "quick fix" for a great many dietary issues. Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets. Any real vegan diet will need to consider a great many factors. Even vegan diets that aren't going to kill you in the long term are still going to cause problems. For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages. Luckily it's easy to fool yourself into eating meat. Many forms of candy, for example, are meat byproducts. So is, of course, a latte.
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      > Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets. That's a pretty exceptional claim, that's not something I believe without a source. > For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages. And a meat based diet that doesn't include fruit, or very little has issues too.
  - master-lincoln 5y ago
    How is milk from a breast of a human vegan? Is there a definition of veganism that says an animal product that was given with consent is considered vegan?
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      There are a few different definitions of veganism, the word itself isn't very old and has often been used to describe not just the a plant-based diet, or abstaining from all animal products, but the philosophy behind it. This is one of the reasons why currently "plant-based diet" is gaining traction, to take the emphasis off the word vegan because it's been connected to the animal rights and ethics of the vegan movement. [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150611163242/http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/wellness-experts-weigh-in-on-the-vegan-diet/2231007 https://web.archive.org/web/20150611163242/http://www.tampab... > " I taught cooking classes for the national non-profit, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and during that time, the phrase "plant-based diet" came to be used as a euphemism for vegan eating, or "the 'v' word." It was developed to take the emphasis off the word vegan, because some associated it with being too extreme a position, sometimes based exclusively in animal rights versus a health rationale."
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      I think it's easy to argue that, specifically, milk from the breast of your mother, as an infant, is not in conflict with any possible interpretation of veganism. It's of course not plant-based, but it is a very special case, as essentially as an infant you are not entirely a separate entity from your mother, even after birth.
- coolso 5y ago
  My ex had the same issue while on a vegan diet - and she was an adult. Random dizzy spells and faintness to the point of almost passing out. It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. And those are just the obvious deficiencies.
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    > It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. I used to think that, but at some point I thought: what's the big deal? If you're still eating healthy, still eating tasty food, and you just also consume a pill or two every day, is that really so bad, or does it just feel "wrong"?
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    > It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. Most non vegans also get their B12 through supplementation. It just is fed to animals directly or indirectly as cobalt supplement. > Most forages and feedstuffs fed to dairy and beef animals do not contain adequate quantities of cobalt to support the rumen and animal requirements. Consequently, supplemental cobalt must be added to beef and dairy rations. [1] [1] https://agriking.com/importance-of-cobalt-to-beef-dairy-cattle/ https://agriking.com/importance-of-cobalt-to-beef-dairy-catt...
  - ajdegol 5y ago
    Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria, it's in all dirt, and untreated water. You absorb it through your skin. It's pretty easy to see how it wasn't long ago that we would be having an abundance of vitamin b12 from everywhere. Cows don't make it, they eat it in soil. Which, actually, because most of them are factory farmed, they are fed the supplement. Nothing natural about that; in fact, you're just skipping the middle-man and cruetly. "But I only eat grass-grazed happy cows!" Good for you! Now how about a solution that can work for everyone. You want to know what the real next pandemic is. It's going to come from the unbelievable abuse of antibiotics the meat industry is responsible for. Medicine will be set back a century.
- Lorkki 5y ago
  B12 supplementation is recommended for a vegan diet at any age. Besides that, I'm not sure what you mean by careful management. Eating a normal varied diet where the proteins come from plant sources gets you covered. Where I live, a vegan diet is recognised as part of the official dietary recommendations for children, and is provided also in schools and kindergartens: https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition-and-food-recommendations/vegan-diet/ https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition...
  - 1_player 5y ago
    Yet on the page strictly about babies and children, the recommendation is to "[use] a moderate amount of poultry meat and some red meat as a source of protein. [...] Eating fish two to three times a week is recommended for the whole family." https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition-and-food-recommendations/babies-and-children-under-school-age/ https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition... There's far too many stories of babies dying of malnutrition on vegan diets. While it's possible to make them healthier for them, let's not go saying it's recommended, just like children can survive on crappy junk food (and plenty of them sadly have to), provided it's fortified with nutrients for them. There's a difference between surviving and thriving.
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      > There's a difference between surviving and thriving. And you have given no proof that a child can't thrive on a vegan diet. Surely it's not something a public health authority recommends, because people generally aren't vegan. I can't find any study supporting that a vegan diet for infants and children can't be as healthy as a non-vegan diet. There are always outliers, but you also have children on non-vegan diets that are missing vitamins and nutrients.
      - dalbasal 5y ago
        Strict vegan diets, in communities that are studied scientifically, were pretty rare until recently. We'll have good data in a decade or so.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
onion2k 5y ago
Cannibalism is frowned upon regardless of your lifestyle choices.
deepsun 5y ago
I think they refer that humans are mammals, and young mammals feed on milk, by definition. And milk isn't vegan.

Unless carefully managed, a vegan diet has a chance of lacking some critical nutrients for the development of young children. I think a vitamin B12 deficiency is common.

waffleiron 5y ago
Thats the same for any infant diet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Second, breastfeeding is vegan too (if the mother consents ;) ).
- candiodari 5y ago
  Meat/fish and byproducts are generally considered a "quick fix" for a great many dietary issues. Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets. Any real vegan diet will need to consider a great many factors. Even vegan diets that aren't going to kill you in the long term are still going to cause problems. For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages. Luckily it's easy to fool yourself into eating meat. Many forms of candy, for example, are meat byproducts. So is, of course, a latte.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    > Giving a baby something with meat in it once a week when they start feeding, once a month after 2 years (or more often) will fix most diets. That's a pretty exceptional claim, that's not something I believe without a source. > For example, a vegan diet with >60% fruit (or fruit and grains), will cause amino acid shortages. Too little fruit, of course, causes Vitamin C shortages. And a meat based diet that doesn't include fruit, or very little has issues too.
- master-lincoln 5y ago
  How is milk from a breast of a human vegan? Is there a definition of veganism that says an animal product that was given with consent is considered vegan?
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    There are a few different definitions of veganism, the word itself isn't very old and has often been used to describe not just the a plant-based diet, or abstaining from all animal products, but the philosophy behind it. This is one of the reasons why currently "plant-based diet" is gaining traction, to take the emphasis off the word vegan because it's been connected to the animal rights and ethics of the vegan movement. [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150611163242/http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/cooking/wellness-experts-weigh-in-on-the-vegan-diet/2231007 https://web.archive.org/web/20150611163242/http://www.tampab... > " I taught cooking classes for the national non-profit, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and during that time, the phrase "plant-based diet" came to be used as a euphemism for vegan eating, or "the 'v' word." It was developed to take the emphasis off the word vegan, because some associated it with being too extreme a position, sometimes based exclusively in animal rights versus a health rationale."
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    I think it's easy to argue that, specifically, milk from the breast of your mother, as an infant, is not in conflict with any possible interpretation of veganism. It's of course not plant-based, but it is a very special case, as essentially as an infant you are not entirely a separate entity from your mother, even after birth.
coolso 5y ago
My ex had the same issue while on a vegan diet - and she was an adult. Random dizzy spells and faintness to the point of almost passing out. It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. And those are just the obvious deficiencies.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  > It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. I used to think that, but at some point I thought: what's the big deal? If you're still eating healthy, still eating tasty food, and you just also consume a pill or two every day, is that really so bad, or does it just feel "wrong"?
- waffleiron 5y ago
  > It boggles my mind anyone would ascribe to a diet that literally requires vitamin supplements through artificial means in order to be complete. Most non vegans also get their B12 through supplementation. It just is fed to animals directly or indirectly as cobalt supplement. > Most forages and feedstuffs fed to dairy and beef animals do not contain adequate quantities of cobalt to support the rumen and animal requirements. Consequently, supplemental cobalt must be added to beef and dairy rations. [1] [1] https://agriking.com/importance-of-cobalt-to-beef-dairy-cattle/ https://agriking.com/importance-of-cobalt-to-beef-dairy-catt...
- ajdegol 5y ago
  Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria, it's in all dirt, and untreated water. You absorb it through your skin. It's pretty easy to see how it wasn't long ago that we would be having an abundance of vitamin b12 from everywhere. Cows don't make it, they eat it in soil. Which, actually, because most of them are factory farmed, they are fed the supplement. Nothing natural about that; in fact, you're just skipping the middle-man and cruetly. "But I only eat grass-grazed happy cows!" Good for you! Now how about a solution that can work for everyone. You want to know what the real next pandemic is. It's going to come from the unbelievable abuse of antibiotics the meat industry is responsible for. Medicine will be set back a century.
Lorkki 5y ago
B12 supplementation is recommended for a vegan diet at any age. Besides that, I'm not sure what you mean by careful management. Eating a normal varied diet where the proteins come from plant sources gets you covered. Where I live, a vegan diet is recognised as part of the official dietary recommendations for children, and is provided also in schools and kindergartens: https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition-and-food-recommendations/vegan-diet/ https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition...
- 1_player 5y ago
  Yet on the page strictly about babies and children, the recommendation is to "[use] a moderate amount of poultry meat and some red meat as a source of protein. [...] Eating fish two to three times a week is recommended for the whole family." https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition-and-food-recommendations/babies-and-children-under-school-age/ https://www.ruokavirasto.fi/en/themes/healthy-diet/nutrition... There's far too many stories of babies dying of malnutrition on vegan diets. While it's possible to make them healthier for them, let's not go saying it's recommended, just like children can survive on crappy junk food (and plenty of them sadly have to), provided it's fortified with nutrients for them. There's a difference between surviving and thriving.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    > There's a difference between surviving and thriving. And you have given no proof that a child can't thrive on a vegan diet. Surely it's not something a public health authority recommends, because people generally aren't vegan. I can't find any study supporting that a vegan diet for infants and children can't be as healthy as a non-vegan diet. There are always outliers, but you also have children on non-vegan diets that are missing vitamins and nutrients.
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      Strict vegan diets, in communities that are studied scientifically, were pretty rare until recently. We'll have good data in a decade or so.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

onion2k 5y ago

Cannibalism is frowned upon regardless of your lifestyle choices.

deepsun 5y ago

I think they refer that humans are mammals, and young mammals feed on milk, by definition. And milk isn't vegan.