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Corruption is one of the fun things I enjoy thinking about. People have to take a step back and realize this can NEVER be beat. Because corruption is a philoso

by wqtz 5y ago

Corruption is one of the fun things I enjoy thinking about. People have to take a step back and realize this can NEVER be beat. Because corruption is a philosophical construct. We saw virtually incorruptible countries tied up in the financial recession that was fueled by greed. But it wasn't greed until it all came crashing down, before that it was a smart move. So preachiness aside let me tell you story. So a friend of mine works in supply chain operations in a certain country. Surprisingly local supply chain professionals are paid comparatively low than their peers with similar skill and education. Yet supply chain type work are always the most deemed jobs in any industry. I asked him, what's the deal. So he just told me, people just makes up the "opportunity" cost by over invoicing and charging commissions to their favored vendors. I said what kind monitoring mechanism do the bosses have. They said usually none, but if they even have monitoring mechanism and get this, corrupt people will use the monitoring mechanism itself to weed out the ones who are honest! So, for the owners the cost corruption is just part of the cost production. They include the cost without much care. Anyway, I am trying to convince him to open a startup with me to address this problem and apply to YC S22.

paxys 5y ago
Just because corruption cannot be "beat" doesn't mean it cannot be reduced. Having lived both in India and the west, believe me people who haven't experienced the former don't know what real corruption is. And on the other end, if you have lived your entire life in a country in the bottom half of the corruption index you may think of corruption to be normal and a necessary way of life, but it is absolutely possible to make a meaningful difference through activism and laws.
- rg111 5y ago
  This is true. In India, from the lowest level of administration- from ward (a few blocks of town/city) councillor and village board members to governor's of states to prime minister and cabinet minister- corruption exists at every level. Every level. Most people are corrupt. People are corrupt, too. People regularly lie about income and property to avail government benefits. In India, if you are not nepotistic, you are perceived badly in society. You will become an outcast and invite anger if you do not abuse Power to help people in your relational vicinity. I know many people who seek government jobs just so they can earn through bribes.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    I’ve lived in the EU, USA, and Asia. The primary distinction is that developing countries have corruption starting at lower levels. However, what this simplistic conclusion fails because the developed countries have huge amounts of corruption at all other levels. Everything is still impacted by lobbying and back channels, in huge multi-billion dollar amounts…
    - andi999 5y ago
      But not having corruption at a lower level makes a lot of difference (in my opinion)
      - yunohn 5y ago
        I agree that as a normal citizen, it feels ickier and annoying. I definitely do not appreciate it myself. However, I feel like the focus on small-time corruption distracts us from the bigger institutionalised corruption that is ever prevalent. By deciding that the lower levels of gov are going to be both underpaid and devoid of other “benefits”, we still end up with gov employees that hate their job and have no motivation. It changes nothing other than convenience for the citizens and results in near-poverty for the gov employees. Meanwhile, the higher-ups are living in mansions in both situations. It’s effectively a classist gate keeping - wherein the powerful always get what they want, and have the opportunity to hide it enough that IME the average citizen in the West still truly believes that their gov is fair and not corrupt.
        michaelt 5y ago
        Does it make a difference who is actually expected to pay the bribe? For example, corrupt traffic officers' bribes are often regressive (as nobody's threatening the rich and powerful), leave people with less money in their pocket, and requires the creation of direct injustices like wrongful imprisonment or even violence. Whereas a defence contractor who has a bunch of retired generals and senators as "advisers" merely steals from tax revenue, which is collected progressively; the average citizen has no less money in their pocket; and no direct threats are needed at all. It's still corruption, certainly, but it doesn't put innocent people in jail.
nindalf 5y ago
I get the feeling some people reading this are going to think corruption in the supply chain is a far away problem that could never happen near them. In fact, one of the main benefits of adopting the shipping container in the 1970s was reducing such graft. Earlier most of the cost of shipping by sea was the labour of packing and unpacking goods at the pier. Goods such as liquor and electronics simply went missing during transit. This was a common practice on the New York piers at the time. The shipping container changed that. It was vastly cheaper because it took very little time to handle at the ports, and it cut down on graft. Shipping and exports grew in the US because “losses” decreased. Source: The Box by Marc Levinson.
muzani 5y ago
You can't beat corruption in the same way you can't beat crime. If you leave it alone, it gets far worse, though. We do have corruption on that level - some of my relatives worked in construction, and they'd just set aside money to bribe everyone. There's money and hookers for project managers. There's money for fire inspections. There's money set aside for to pay police and family members if someone dies. It's treated like a fine. There's code words, like when someone says their phone keeps running out of battery and can't call back, it means that they expect a new iPhone. It's all fine until the prime minister siphons billions off the sovereign wealth fund. Cleaning up corruption is a lot of work, and often the process has a lot of unexpected ripples. Often it can't be cleaned up without a revolution, sometimes a violent one.
yencabulator 5y ago
> and realize this can NEVER be beat Ah, the classic "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". You can live your whole life in several European countries without ever witnessing corruption. But because America is special, surely nothing can be done!
- tekknik 5y ago
  I think it’s interesting that they said it can’t be beat, yet they’re starting a startup. This feels like corruption itself.

by wqtz 5y ago

paxys 5y ago

Just because corruption cannot be "beat" doesn't mean it cannot be reduced. Having lived both in India and the west, believe me people who haven't experienced the former don't know what real corruption is. And on the other end, if you have lived your entire life in a country in the bottom half of the corruption index you may think of corruption to be normal and a necessary way of life, but it is absolutely possible to make a meaningful difference through activism and laws.

rg111 5y ago
This is true. In India, from the lowest level of administration- from ward (a few blocks of town/city) councillor and village board members to governor's of states to prime minister and cabinet minister- corruption exists at every level. Every level. Most people are corrupt. People are corrupt, too. People regularly lie about income and property to avail government benefits. In India, if you are not nepotistic, you are perceived badly in society. You will become an outcast and invite anger if you do not abuse Power to help people in your relational vicinity. I know many people who seek government jobs just so they can earn through bribes.
- yunohn 5y ago
  I’ve lived in the EU, USA, and Asia. The primary distinction is that developing countries have corruption starting at lower levels. However, what this simplistic conclusion fails because the developed countries have huge amounts of corruption at all other levels. Everything is still impacted by lobbying and back channels, in huge multi-billion dollar amounts…
  - andi999 5y ago
    But not having corruption at a lower level makes a lot of difference (in my opinion)
    - yunohn 5y ago
      I agree that as a normal citizen, it feels ickier and annoying. I definitely do not appreciate it myself. However, I feel like the focus on small-time corruption distracts us from the bigger institutionalised corruption that is ever prevalent. By deciding that the lower levels of gov are going to be both underpaid and devoid of other “benefits”, we still end up with gov employees that hate their job and have no motivation. It changes nothing other than convenience for the citizens and results in near-poverty for the gov employees. Meanwhile, the higher-ups are living in mansions in both situations. It’s effectively a classist gate keeping - wherein the powerful always get what they want, and have the opportunity to hide it enough that IME the average citizen in the West still truly believes that their gov is fair and not corrupt.
      - michaelt 5y ago
        Does it make a difference who is actually expected to pay the bribe? For example, corrupt traffic officers' bribes are often regressive (as nobody's threatening the rich and powerful), leave people with less money in their pocket, and requires the creation of direct injustices like wrongful imprisonment or even violence. Whereas a defence contractor who has a bunch of retired generals and senators as "advisers" merely steals from tax revenue, which is collected progressively; the average citizen has no less money in their pocket; and no direct threats are needed at all. It's still corruption, certainly, but it doesn't put innocent people in jail.

nindalf 5y ago

I get the feeling some people reading this are going to think corruption in the supply chain is a far away problem that could never happen near them. In fact, one of the main benefits of adopting the shipping container in the 1970s was reducing such graft. Earlier most of the cost of shipping by sea was the labour of packing and unpacking goods at the pier. Goods such as liquor and electronics simply went missing during transit. This was a common practice on the New York piers at the time. The shipping container changed that. It was vastly cheaper because it took very little time to handle at the ports, and it cut down on graft. Shipping and exports grew in the US because “losses” decreased. Source: The Box by Marc Levinson.

muzani 5y ago

You can't beat corruption in the same way you can't beat crime. If you leave it alone, it gets far worse, though. We do have corruption on that level - some of my relatives worked in construction, and they'd just set aside money to bribe everyone. There's money and hookers for project managers. There's money for fire inspections. There's money set aside for to pay police and family members if someone dies. It's treated like a fine. There's code words, like when someone says their phone keeps running out of battery and can't call back, it means that they expect a new iPhone. It's all fine until the prime minister siphons billions off the sovereign wealth fund. Cleaning up corruption is a lot of work, and often the process has a lot of unexpected ripples. Often it can't be cleaned up without a revolution, sometimes a violent one.

yencabulator 5y ago

> and realize this can NEVER be beat Ah, the classic "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens". You can live your whole life in several European countries without ever witnessing corruption. But because America is special, surely nothing can be done!

tekknik 5y ago
I think it’s interesting that they said it can’t be beat, yet they’re starting a startup. This feels like corruption itself.