5 ms·

We've all pretty well beaten the electric-vehicle conversation to death, but since we're on the "oil demand and the nasty actors it empowers" topic, here's anot

We've all pretty well beaten the electric-vehicle conversation to death, but since we're on the "oil demand and the nasty actors it empowers" topic, here's another slice of the demand pie that solutions are emerging for: ground source heat pumps as a replacement for heating oil in the remaining american northeast market -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_4mPwPRAt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_4mPwPRAt0 They've developed/adapted water well drilling rigs into a smaller faster machine that can fit in more backyards and drill a vertical GSHP well much faster and with much less impact to the property than a horizontal loop.

gonzo 5y ago
My father and grandfather were water well drilling contractors. I drilled two wells for ground source heat pumps for his home in the early 80s. They work very well, but the construction costs are higher than ordinary heat pumps.
VectorLock 5y ago
Sounds pretty cool technology, This Old House did an install with this same company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMO9jvwlHFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMO9jvwlHFg I have to replace two oil furnaces and I wish this didn't cost 5x more and wouldn't be compatible with the very small lot (although with very close bedrock)
maxerickson 5y ago
https://dandelionenergy.com/geothermal-pricing-guide https://dandelionenergy.com/geothermal-pricing-guide They say $18,000-$25,000 after incentives for the upfront cost, with annual savings of $1,600. That's still pretty expensive (even just in terms of direct payback time).
- yojo 5y ago
  Does anyone finance these things? 1600 against 25k is 6.4%. Seems like it wouldn’t be too hard to break even in todays rate environment.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The This Old House video in a sibling comment to mine says that is one of the strategies the company is using (with the customer just getting a monthly bill lower than what they are paying to begin with).
- Retric 5y ago
  People need heating systems either way, so you want to compare additional costs vs savings not total system costs. At a minimum subtract $3,300 – $6,900 for the high efficiency gas furnace you no longer need and to install. Further the savings should generally increase with inflation. PS: Also when comparing the savings from this or other home improvements vs other investments, remember your savings are after taxes.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Sure, you'd want to do figure out the specifics for a given situation. Their estimate of the savings is for situations where the fuel is trucked in (and thus rather expensive).
    - Retric 5y ago
      Yea geothermal can work, but solar thermal is generally the better option in northern parts of the us. They cost ~1/2 as much and generally don’t need additional energy for heating beyond some pumps. The advantages of geothermal is it’s more hidden and it can also reduce your AC bill.
- lsllc 5y ago
  That's optimistic. The 3 GSHP systems and one ASHP I've been involved with have been in the $50K+ range although all but one were a new build and includes the AC ductwork in the house (the other was forced hot water and involved retrofitting ducts). Tack on another $15K+ or more for the drilled well & pump (obv. not needed with ASHP). Sadly, it's kind of a boutique market and people who want these systems are often willing to pay quite a bit for them. As for the rebates, most of the installers seem to think that belongs to them, so if they're quoting $50K, that's after the rebate, despite the fact that the equipment (e.g. a 3.5 ton water furnace) isn't really that much more expensive than a higher end high-efficiency gas boiler (e.g. $5-7K ish).
calvinmorrison 5y ago
I wanted to know if there's some... well more primitive version of ground source heat pumps... like circulating cold water through radiators and back into a well. Somewhere between pouring buckets on your head and star trek technology. Heating scales up for complexity from a potbelly stove up to complex systems, wish cooling did as well.
- DannyBee 5y ago
  Honestly - not that is cost efficient.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  More primitive? Sure. Qanat + wind tower - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling
throwawaylinux 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_energy_consumption.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_energy_consumption.... We are a long, long way to reducing fossil fuel demand. We've barely even seen a leveling of coal demand and with increasing prices for gas and oil, coal may still be yet to see its peak. Certainly in China, fossil fuel demand will continue to skyrocket for decades. They're perfectly happy to buy from Russia, or Iran, or Saudi, or Syria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Coal_Consumption.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Coal_Consumption.sv... For all the predictions of the demise of coal the fossil fuel industry driven propaganda about the green movement and the triumph of renewables, global coal consumption almost doubled over the past 20 years. The number one way to put the squeeze on petroleum regimes is to increase production in "friendly" countries. Number two would be massive expansion of nuclear power, which is long overdue for a Manhattan Project (joke intended) to seriously address climate change anyway.
DannyBee 5y ago
I love GSHP. You can see this in previous comments on HN. I've had it done many times, and am friendly with a lot of drillers. I've even had this kind of rig drill for me before. It will not change anything. On the the mess: The majority of the mess is geology. Water/Sediment control (you hit 100 gallons/minute of water and need to control it) or cuttings. It's possible to be cleaner about cuttings in the ideal case, but it would be a lot more expensive. If you dig a 500 ft hole with a 6 inch bore, that's 100 cubic feet of messy stuff to put somewhere. You are often drilling 3 or 4 of these holes. Using vacuums and other rig would dramatically increase costs (if you are driving a dump truck into the yard, you are going to destroy the yard as much as it would to just bulldoze the cuttings into your soil :P) Sediment control is similar. On the economics - these rigs change nothing about the economics. Most drill rigs are already drilling about as fast as it can reasonably be done. They churn through granite quite quickly. The real issue i that they can only do a house a day for a random single family home because they have to go, set up, etc. The kind of rig you are seeing here doesn't change that. The economics only get good when they do entire developments that are under construction, because they can just drill, move, drill, move, drill, move much easier. They also often can locate the bores in a single area and extend the piping to the entire development.
somethoughts 5y ago
Came across a pretty good high level video discussing the various approaches. Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat Pumps Explained - Undecided with Matt Ferrell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI45yUhUWgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI45yUhUWgk Seems like closed loop (i.e. basically contained refrigerant in a pipe) seems to avoid the issues with contamination that results from the open loop systems.
lsllc 5y ago
For the Northeast US (the largest heating oil market in the world), there isn't any kind of heat pump isn't going to work with existing forced hot water heating systems which is by far the most common type of install. The heat pumps don't put out enough volume of water at a hot enough temperature (heat pumps at maybe 125F vs 185F for oil/gas boiler). Most radiators / baseboards will radiate about 650BTU/hr per linear foot at 185F and are sized based on the heat loss calculations for the room/house and the ASHRAE design temps for your location. So if a room needs 6500 BTU/hr at 25F outside to maintain 70F inside, then you'll need 10' of baseboard. If you start feeding 125F water instead of 185F water, then you'll get significantly less heat out of the rads/baseboard and you won't reach the design temps indoors unless it's much warmer out. Generally heat pumps (ground or air source) are forced hot air (since you only need to raise the air temp by a few degrees as long as you have enough CFM of air flowing), or radiant slab where you only need 75-80F water or the slab cracks and/or is uncomfortably hot. A combination of both also works as a radiant floor doesn't help with cooling in the summer. If you've got an existing forced air heating system, or are building a new house with forced air then either a GSHP or some of the newer air source heat pumps are a fantastic idea (despite the somewhat premium price vs a traditional oil/gas/propane boiler). Note that for GSHP it'll probably cost you upwards of $15K for the artesian well alone, but maybe you need one anyway (or already have one) if you're not on city-water in which case the only additional cost would be a variable speed pump vs a fixed speed one (assuming that the well is deep enough and has a high enough flow rate to provide enough "tons" of heating/cooling). Finally, not every city or town will give you a permit to drill a 600+' well (assuming the geology supports either an open or closed loop system). ... and you still need a heat source for domestic hot water, probably an on-demand natural gas/propane unit or an electrically heated hot water tank, although the GSHPs have a "de-superheater" feature that lets excess heat be diverted into the h/w tank during the summer/shoulder seasons, but generally not the winter. ... and the GSHP usually needs a backup heater (often resistive electric coils, but a smart design will use a hydronic coil on a zone on a condensing combi-boiler if you have one for hot water). The air source heat pumps definitely need a backup heater as they periodically run backwards to defrost the coils in the winter to prevent ice buildup in the condenser.

gonzo 5y ago

My father and grandfather were water well drilling contractors. I drilled two wells for ground source heat pumps for his home in the early 80s. They work very well, but the construction costs are higher than ordinary heat pumps.

VectorLock 5y ago

Sounds pretty cool technology, This Old House did an install with this same company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMO9jvwlHFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMO9jvwlHFg I have to replace two oil furnaces and I wish this didn't cost 5x more and wouldn't be compatible with the very small lot (although with very close bedrock)

maxerickson 5y ago

https://dandelionenergy.com/geothermal-pricing-guide https://dandelionenergy.com/geothermal-pricing-guide They say $18,000-$25,000 after incentives for the upfront cost, with annual savings of $1,600. That's still pretty expensive (even just in terms of direct payback time).

yojo 5y ago
Does anyone finance these things? 1600 against 25k is 6.4%. Seems like it wouldn’t be too hard to break even in todays rate environment.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  The This Old House video in a sibling comment to mine says that is one of the strategies the company is using (with the customer just getting a monthly bill lower than what they are paying to begin with).
Retric 5y ago
People need heating systems either way, so you want to compare additional costs vs savings not total system costs. At a minimum subtract $3,300 – $6,900 for the high efficiency gas furnace you no longer need and to install. Further the savings should generally increase with inflation. PS: Also when comparing the savings from this or other home improvements vs other investments, remember your savings are after taxes.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Sure, you'd want to do figure out the specifics for a given situation. Their estimate of the savings is for situations where the fuel is trucked in (and thus rather expensive).
  - Retric 5y ago
    Yea geothermal can work, but solar thermal is generally the better option in northern parts of the us. They cost ~1/2 as much and generally don’t need additional energy for heating beyond some pumps. The advantages of geothermal is it’s more hidden and it can also reduce your AC bill.
lsllc 5y ago
That's optimistic. The 3 GSHP systems and one ASHP I've been involved with have been in the $50K+ range although all but one were a new build and includes the AC ductwork in the house (the other was forced hot water and involved retrofitting ducts). Tack on another $15K+ or more for the drilled well & pump (obv. not needed with ASHP). Sadly, it's kind of a boutique market and people who want these systems are often willing to pay quite a bit for them. As for the rebates, most of the installers seem to think that belongs to them, so if they're quoting $50K, that's after the rebate, despite the fact that the equipment (e.g. a 3.5 ton water furnace) isn't really that much more expensive than a higher end high-efficiency gas boiler (e.g. $5-7K ish).

calvinmorrison 5y ago

I wanted to know if there's some... well more primitive version of ground source heat pumps... like circulating cold water through radiators and back into a well. Somewhere between pouring buckets on your head and star trek technology. Heating scales up for complexity from a potbelly stove up to complex systems, wish cooling did as well.

DannyBee 5y ago
Honestly - not that is cost efficient.
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
More primitive? Sure. Qanat + wind tower - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

throwawaylinux 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_energy_consumption.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_energy_consumption.... We are a long, long way to reducing fossil fuel demand. We've barely even seen a leveling of coal demand and with increasing prices for gas and oil, coal may still be yet to see its peak. Certainly in China, fossil fuel demand will continue to skyrocket for decades. They're perfectly happy to buy from Russia, or Iran, or Saudi, or Syria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Coal_Consumption.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Coal_Consumption.sv... For all the predictions of the demise of coal the fossil fuel industry driven propaganda about the green movement and the triumph of renewables, global coal consumption almost doubled over the past 20 years. The number one way to put the squeeze on petroleum regimes is to increase production in "friendly" countries. Number two would be massive expansion of nuclear power, which is long overdue for a Manhattan Project (joke intended) to seriously address climate change anyway.

DannyBee 5y ago

I love GSHP. You can see this in previous comments on HN. I've had it done many times, and am friendly with a lot of drillers. I've even had this kind of rig drill for me before. It will not change anything. On the the mess: The majority of the mess is geology. Water/Sediment control (you hit 100 gallons/minute of water and need to control it) or cuttings. It's possible to be cleaner about cuttings in the ideal case, but it would be a lot more expensive. If you dig a 500 ft hole with a 6 inch bore, that's 100 cubic feet of messy stuff to put somewhere. You are often drilling 3 or 4 of these holes. Using vacuums and other rig would dramatically increase costs (if you are driving a dump truck into the yard, you are going to destroy the yard as much as it would to just bulldoze the cuttings into your soil :P) Sediment control is similar. On the economics - these rigs change nothing about the economics. Most drill rigs are already drilling about as fast as it can reasonably be done. They churn through granite quite quickly. The real issue i that they can only do a house a day for a random single family home because they have to go, set up, etc. The kind of rig you are seeing here doesn't change that. The economics only get good when they do entire developments that are under construction, because they can just drill, move, drill, move, drill, move much easier. They also often can locate the bores in a single area and extend the piping to the entire development.

somethoughts 5y ago

Came across a pretty good high level video discussing the various approaches. Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat Pumps Explained - Undecided with Matt Ferrell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI45yUhUWgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI45yUhUWgk Seems like closed loop (i.e. basically contained refrigerant in a pipe) seems to avoid the issues with contamination that results from the open loop systems.

lsllc 5y ago

For the Northeast US (the largest heating oil market in the world), there isn't any kind of heat pump isn't going to work with existing forced hot water heating systems which is by far the most common type of install. The heat pumps don't put out enough volume of water at a hot enough temperature (heat pumps at maybe 125F vs 185F for oil/gas boiler). Most radiators / baseboards will radiate about 650BTU/hr per linear foot at 185F and are sized based on the heat loss calculations for the room/house and the ASHRAE design temps for your location. So if a room needs 6500 BTU/hr at 25F outside to maintain 70F inside, then you'll need 10' of baseboard. If you start feeding 125F water instead of 185F water, then you'll get significantly less heat out of the rads/baseboard and you won't reach the design temps indoors unless it's much warmer out. Generally heat pumps (ground or air source) are forced hot air (since you only need to raise the air temp by a few degrees as long as you have enough CFM of air flowing), or radiant slab where you only need 75-80F water or the slab cracks and/or is uncomfortably hot. A combination of both also works as a radiant floor doesn't help with cooling in the summer. If you've got an existing forced air heating system, or are building a new house with forced air then either a GSHP or some of the newer air source heat pumps are a fantastic idea (despite the somewhat premium price vs a traditional oil/gas/propane boiler). Note that for GSHP it'll probably cost you upwards of $15K for the artesian well alone, but maybe you need one anyway (or already have one) if you're not on city-water in which case the only additional cost would be a variable speed pump vs a fixed speed one (assuming that the well is deep enough and has a high enough flow rate to provide enough "tons" of heating/cooling). Finally, not every city or town will give you a permit to drill a 600+' well (assuming the geology supports either an open or closed loop system). ... and you still need a heat source for domestic hot water, probably an on-demand natural gas/propane unit or an electrically heated hot water tank, although the GSHPs have a "de-superheater" feature that lets excess heat be diverted into the h/w tank during the summer/shoulder seasons, but generally not the winter. ... and the GSHP usually needs a backup heater (often resistive electric coils, but a smart design will use a hydronic coil on a zone on a condensing combi-boiler if you have one for hot water). The air source heat pumps definitely need a backup heater as they periodically run backwards to defrost the coils in the winter to prevent ice buildup in the condenser.