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Lately I've become convinced that video games and social media are in the same class as drugs and alcohol. They're a pretty fun way to kill time, but some peopl

Lately I've become convinced that video games and social media are in the same class as drugs and alcohol. They're a pretty fun way to kill time, but some people are predisposed to doing too much, and too much is dangerous. Also similar to drugs/alcohol: it seems to affect some people more than others. I know people who can check FB/TikTok for a couple minutes and then they're done, and I also know people who continue to scroll Instagram while cooking. It's very similar to how some people can knock down some beers a couple times a month socially, but some people end up in a vicious spiral of drinking every single night.

pfundstein 5y ago
The common denominator is of course dopamine, and drugs, social media, video games, etc, all offer an easy and reliable hit.
- superkuh 5y ago
  Every single thing you do involves dopamine. The difference with drugs (of which alcohol is one) is that they directly manipulate your brains neurochemistry. Nothing you perceive with your normal senses does that. Even sex doesn't have the same addictive effects as direct chemical manipulation of the dopaminergic neuronal populations. The idea that they are the same is very dangerous for society and will lead to the use of violence to control people where it is definitely not warranted.
sometimeshuman 5y ago
The question is if these vectors of addiction are compounding or if it always affects people who were prone towards addiction anyway. My hope is the latter. Not that having a population of 10%(?) addictions isn't tragic, but it's better than eventually having a population of 90% addicts because we eventually offer personally tailored addictive products at scale.
irjustin 5y ago
> video games and social media are in the same class as drugs and alcohol. Disagreed - one key aspect of the latter is physical dependance where withdraws are potentially life threatening. It's similar sledge hammer approach to putting weed on class 1 or treating all wrong doings as 'sin'. They are not the same things, should not be thought as the same nor treated the same.
- snek_case 5y ago
  The concept of physical vs psychological dependence is kind of outdated, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaiP31qWf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaiP31qWf0 I don't see anything wrong with talking about a video game or social media addiction. Of course it's nowhere near the same level of danger as a heroin addiction, but if it's counter-productive and there's the same kinds of behaviors involved, it can be a useful model. Just the same, you can be addicted to coffee. Caffeine is a drug. It's not expensive, and it's not known for tearing families apart, but it builds a tolerance, it produces a withdrawal, and people will change their behavior to get access to more coffee, may become aggressive when they can't get access to it, etc. If you think that you waste too much time on social media, then just like with drug addiction, there's a question of first realizing/accepting that this is even a problem at all. Then, once you've realized that there's a problem, you might want to think about coping strategies, replacing social media with other activities, developing healthier habits, etc. And just like with a drug addiction, you might find quitting cold turkey difficult.
  - irjustin 5y ago
    > physical vs psychological dependence is kind of outdated I wouldn't say outdated, but I do agree it is 100% up for debate. Kurzgesagt did a really similar video[0] on addiction, but the basically walked it back from such a hard line stance in a correction/update video[1]. It's not so easy to tease apart the social vs the physical vs the pure mental. > Just the same, you can be addicted to coffee. Caffeine is a drug. Right, I think you're agreeing with me. That they have similar aspects, but to treat them the same - like putting caffine on Class 1 - would be insane. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJAQZxJ6vY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJAQZxJ6vY [1] https://youtu.be/JtUAAXe_0VI?t=224 https://youtu.be/JtUAAXe_0VI?t=224
    - snek_case 5y ago
      I'm assuming you mean schedule 1. Nobody is suggesting that coffee should be placed in that category. I don't think there's a problem in society with people equating coffee or videogames with highly addictive drugs. It's more the opposite. People don't realize that addiction is something that could happen to them, or that they have an addiction to something. Alcoholics and drug addicts often live in denial, even when it has really damaging consequences in their life. So, if someone is addicted to something that's not widely considered addictive, it's even easier to deny that this is even a problem. When the idea of an addiction to porn or videogames is brought up in an online discussion thread, people are quick to dismiss that this even is a real problem. Consider though that gambling addiction is very much real, and a lot of gambling takes places with machines that are effectively simple videogames. Addiction to video games isn't as devastating, because you're not losing huge sums of money, just time, but presumably, the addictive mechanism is more or less the same.
onion2k 5y ago
I will never understand how people moralize behaviours rather than outcomes. Drinking every night is fine if you don't do it to excess. A beer or two, or a glass of wine with dinner, or a nightcap, doesn't hurt anyone. Drinking every night to the level where you're damaging your health is a problem. Having a few beers a couple of times a month is great. Binge drinking a couple of times a month to the point where you harm yourself or others is a problem. It doesn't matter how often you do it. It matters what happens when you do. The time frame is essentially unrelated.
- f1refly 5y ago
  Two beers a day is very, very dangerous according to my girlfriend, a social worker.
  - Out_of_Characte 5y ago
    All I can say is that mindset is more important than amount consumed. Just look at depressed people drinking, a single beer already makes the person more likely to become an alcoholic. yet two or thee beers every evening wouldn't suddenly create an alcoholic out of me.
  - onion2k 5y ago
    My partner is a therapist and strongly advocates having a glass of wine with dinner most nights.
    - Freak_NL 5y ago
      Two drinks each night versus one is quite a difference. It's double the amount of alcohol! Current recommendation from the Netherlands Nutrition Centre: > It is advisable to refrain from drinking alcohol, or to consume at most one glass a day. This advice applies equally to men and women. > Moderate consumption of alcohol at one glass a day may reduce the chance of getting certain chronic diseases, but also raises the chances of getting breast cancer for women. Drinking more than one glass a day, is not beneficial at all, and has negative effects on health. It increases the risks of having a stroke; and getting breast, intestinal, or long cancer. > The potential benefits of alcohol do not outweigh the negative effects on your health.¹ (Personally, I drink only in the weekends; usually one glass, occasionally two. It prevents making a habit out of it.) 1: https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/encyclopedie/alcohol.aspx https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/encyclopedie/alcohol.aspx
leodriesch 5y ago
I’d agree with you. It is in a similar vector. The problem with that is that, different to drugs, social media is not regulated (in terms of UX and manipulation of behavior/emotions). Social media is allowed to make their platform as addictive as they possibly can. You’re not allowed to create and sell a drug that is perfected for addiction. Social media and video games are sort of a Wild West in terms of regulation, and I think we’ll have to see some in the next years to combat this.
Siira 5y ago
Offline video games are healthier than social media IMO. They need focus. They leave you feeling rewarded after playing; the ones that don’t aren’t addictive (for me, at least). Either they have some finite (and usually short) content, or they become boring after playing many hours in a short period of time. (I guess this isn’t true for some people, and they should stay away from such infinitely playable games.) They leave you with fond, distinct memories. They don’t influence your worldview and politics overmuch. They can inspire your creativity and imagination. …

pfundstein 5y ago

The common denominator is of course dopamine, and drugs, social media, video games, etc, all offer an easy and reliable hit.

superkuh 5y ago
Every single thing you do involves dopamine. The difference with drugs (of which alcohol is one) is that they directly manipulate your brains neurochemistry. Nothing you perceive with your normal senses does that. Even sex doesn't have the same addictive effects as direct chemical manipulation of the dopaminergic neuronal populations. The idea that they are the same is very dangerous for society and will lead to the use of violence to control people where it is definitely not warranted.

sometimeshuman 5y ago

The question is if these vectors of addiction are compounding or if it always affects people who were prone towards addiction anyway. My hope is the latter. Not that having a population of 10%(?) addictions isn't tragic, but it's better than eventually having a population of 90% addicts because we eventually offer personally tailored addictive products at scale.

irjustin 5y ago

> video games and social media are in the same class as drugs and alcohol. Disagreed - one key aspect of the latter is physical dependance where withdraws are potentially life threatening. It's similar sledge hammer approach to putting weed on class 1 or treating all wrong doings as 'sin'. They are not the same things, should not be thought as the same nor treated the same.

snek_case 5y ago
The concept of physical vs psychological dependence is kind of outdated, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaiP31qWf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaiP31qWf0 I don't see anything wrong with talking about a video game or social media addiction. Of course it's nowhere near the same level of danger as a heroin addiction, but if it's counter-productive and there's the same kinds of behaviors involved, it can be a useful model. Just the same, you can be addicted to coffee. Caffeine is a drug. It's not expensive, and it's not known for tearing families apart, but it builds a tolerance, it produces a withdrawal, and people will change their behavior to get access to more coffee, may become aggressive when they can't get access to it, etc. If you think that you waste too much time on social media, then just like with drug addiction, there's a question of first realizing/accepting that this is even a problem at all. Then, once you've realized that there's a problem, you might want to think about coping strategies, replacing social media with other activities, developing healthier habits, etc. And just like with a drug addiction, you might find quitting cold turkey difficult.
- irjustin 5y ago
  > physical vs psychological dependence is kind of outdated I wouldn't say outdated, but I do agree it is 100% up for debate. Kurzgesagt did a really similar video[0] on addiction, but the basically walked it back from such a hard line stance in a correction/update video[1]. It's not so easy to tease apart the social vs the physical vs the pure mental. > Just the same, you can be addicted to coffee. Caffeine is a drug. Right, I think you're agreeing with me. That they have similar aspects, but to treat them the same - like putting caffine on Class 1 - would be insane. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJAQZxJ6vY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJAQZxJ6vY [1] https://youtu.be/JtUAAXe_0VI?t=224 https://youtu.be/JtUAAXe_0VI?t=224
  - snek_case 5y ago
    I'm assuming you mean schedule 1. Nobody is suggesting that coffee should be placed in that category. I don't think there's a problem in society with people equating coffee or videogames with highly addictive drugs. It's more the opposite. People don't realize that addiction is something that could happen to them, or that they have an addiction to something. Alcoholics and drug addicts often live in denial, even when it has really damaging consequences in their life. So, if someone is addicted to something that's not widely considered addictive, it's even easier to deny that this is even a problem. When the idea of an addiction to porn or videogames is brought up in an online discussion thread, people are quick to dismiss that this even is a real problem. Consider though that gambling addiction is very much real, and a lot of gambling takes places with machines that are effectively simple videogames. Addiction to video games isn't as devastating, because you're not losing huge sums of money, just time, but presumably, the addictive mechanism is more or less the same.

onion2k 5y ago

I will never understand how people moralize behaviours rather than outcomes. Drinking every night is fine if you don't do it to excess. A beer or two, or a glass of wine with dinner, or a nightcap, doesn't hurt anyone. Drinking every night to the level where you're damaging your health is a problem. Having a few beers a couple of times a month is great. Binge drinking a couple of times a month to the point where you harm yourself or others is a problem. It doesn't matter how often you do it. It matters what happens when you do. The time frame is essentially unrelated.

f1refly 5y ago
Two beers a day is very, very dangerous according to my girlfriend, a social worker.
- Out_of_Characte 5y ago
  All I can say is that mindset is more important than amount consumed. Just look at depressed people drinking, a single beer already makes the person more likely to become an alcoholic. yet two or thee beers every evening wouldn't suddenly create an alcoholic out of me.
- onion2k 5y ago
  My partner is a therapist and strongly advocates having a glass of wine with dinner most nights.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Two drinks each night versus one is quite a difference. It's double the amount of alcohol! Current recommendation from the Netherlands Nutrition Centre: > It is advisable to refrain from drinking alcohol, or to consume at most one glass a day. This advice applies equally to men and women. > Moderate consumption of alcohol at one glass a day may reduce the chance of getting certain chronic diseases, but also raises the chances of getting breast cancer for women. Drinking more than one glass a day, is not beneficial at all, and has negative effects on health. It increases the risks of having a stroke; and getting breast, intestinal, or long cancer. > The potential benefits of alcohol do not outweigh the negative effects on your health.¹ (Personally, I drink only in the weekends; usually one glass, occasionally two. It prevents making a habit out of it.) 1: https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/encyclopedie/alcohol.aspx https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/encyclopedie/alcohol.aspx

leodriesch 5y ago

I’d agree with you. It is in a similar vector. The problem with that is that, different to drugs, social media is not regulated (in terms of UX and manipulation of behavior/emotions). Social media is allowed to make their platform as addictive as they possibly can. You’re not allowed to create and sell a drug that is perfected for addiction. Social media and video games are sort of a Wild West in terms of regulation, and I think we’ll have to see some in the next years to combat this.

Siira 5y ago

Offline video games are healthier than social media IMO. They need focus. They leave you feeling rewarded after playing; the ones that don’t aren’t addictive (for me, at least). Either they have some finite (and usually short) content, or they become boring after playing many hours in a short period of time. (I guess this isn’t true for some people, and they should stay away from such infinitely playable games.) They leave you with fond, distinct memories. They don’t influence your worldview and politics overmuch. They can inspire your creativity and imagination. …