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> The bag law will be incredibly inconvenient, especially to people in urban areas that don't obsess about environmental politics. That's kind of the point. It

> The bag law will be incredibly inconvenient, especially to people in urban areas that don't obsess about environmental politics. That's kind of the point. It's mildly inconvenient to change one's behaviour and keep reusable bags in the trunk of your car or at the bottom of your grocery backpack, so most people just don't bother until you force them to. > Even if you agree with the goals of these types of laws, they strike me as ineffective. On what are you basing your assessment that these types of laws are ineffective?

philjohn 5y ago
From looking at some figures, seems that in the UK it's reduced plastic bag sales in supermarkets by 95 odd %. It's pretty normal to see the majority of people either using a plastic "bag for life" or an even better canvas bag or similar over here.
Ourgon 5y ago
Sweden has some good examples of how these laws are counterproductive. When the "party for the environment" was in the government (they stepped out of it a number of months ago) they pushed through a high tax on plastic bags ($1 on normal shopping bags, $0.05 on those flimsy bags used for fruit and vegetables). They expected to get a lot of extra taxes this way (the true reason for the law) but were warned the net effect would be an increase in the use of fossil-fuel derived plastic. Why? Because Swedish plastic shopping bags are to a large extent - somewhere around 95% - made from renewable materials like sugarcane. Those bags were used to take home shopping after which they did double duty as garbage bags. The tax specifically targets shopping and produce bags, not just any plastic bag. The net effect is that people have started buying plastic garbage bags which, unlike those shopping bags, are made from fossil sources. They more or less stopped buying renewable shopping bags since nobody likes to be punished for doing the right thing, no matter how much that "party for the environment" thought they would. The plastic bag tax has not nearly brought in the amount they thought it would and has led to an increase in the use of non-renewable plastics and a decrease in the use of decomposable garbage bags. It also functions as a warning for any company which wants to invest in creating renewable plastics, the government can pull the rug from under your business any time. These laws are not just ineffective, they are counterproductive.
- xiphias2 5y ago
  The problem with these laws is not that they are ineffective, but they are not well defined experiments with predefined goals and measurements. It's impossible to run a modern, successful company without A/B testing, this should be expected from governments as well.
chrismcb 5y ago
Is the behavior change better though? I've heard claims that reusable bags have to be used a lot(like thousands of times) to actually be better.

philjohn 5y ago

From looking at some figures, seems that in the UK it's reduced plastic bag sales in supermarkets by 95 odd %. It's pretty normal to see the majority of people either using a plastic "bag for life" or an even better canvas bag or similar over here.

Ourgon 5y ago

Sweden has some good examples of how these laws are counterproductive. When the "party for the environment" was in the government (they stepped out of it a number of months ago) they pushed through a high tax on plastic bags ($1 on normal shopping bags, $0.05 on those flimsy bags used for fruit and vegetables). They expected to get a lot of extra taxes this way (the true reason for the law) but were warned the net effect would be an increase in the use of fossil-fuel derived plastic. Why? Because Swedish plastic shopping bags are to a large extent - somewhere around 95% - made from renewable materials like sugarcane. Those bags were used to take home shopping after which they did double duty as garbage bags. The tax specifically targets shopping and produce bags, not just any plastic bag. The net effect is that people have started buying plastic garbage bags which, unlike those shopping bags, are made from fossil sources. They more or less stopped buying renewable shopping bags since nobody likes to be punished for doing the right thing, no matter how much that "party for the environment" thought they would. The plastic bag tax has not nearly brought in the amount they thought it would and has led to an increase in the use of non-renewable plastics and a decrease in the use of decomposable garbage bags. It also functions as a warning for any company which wants to invest in creating renewable plastics, the government can pull the rug from under your business any time. These laws are not just ineffective, they are counterproductive.

xiphias2 5y ago
The problem with these laws is not that they are ineffective, but they are not well defined experiments with predefined goals and measurements. It's impossible to run a modern, successful company without A/B testing, this should be expected from governments as well.

chrismcb 5y ago

Is the behavior change better though? I've heard claims that reusable bags have to be used a lot(like thousands of times) to actually be better.