4 ms·

It's been implemented in video games, at least! The "NARPAS SWORD" password in Metroid comes to mind. The practical issue here is that a secret password to rel

by djur 5y ago

It's been implemented in video games, at least! The "NARPAS SWORD" password in Metroid comes to mind. The practical issue here is that a secret password to release the hounds or whatever is only useful if someone is able to use it at the appropriate time. It's hard to memorize a password you don't use. The number of cases where a "release the hounds" password is going to be usable and useful where a "log into admin account which has a 'release the hounds' button" wouldn't be is going to be very low.

giantg2 5y ago
The fact that you remember the one from a videogame, makes it seem like that would be a good candidate password for this purpose. If it's used to wipe the data (which is backed up), then it shouldn't need to be as secure as a regular password. In fact, it might be preferable to be less secure so that someone trying to brute force would hit the duress password first.
- djur 5y ago
  If we're talking about the specific case of duress passwords, sure. Although in that case the better defense against brute forcing is to wipe the data after too many failures. And at some point you might as well just put a "self destruct" button on there and skip the need for a password.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    Wiping is the simplest and dumbest use of the ability to use passwords, or indeed the whole name + password pair, as essentially a command prompt. Have some imagination.
    - djur 5y ago
      I was responding to a comment that said "[i]f it's used to wipe the data...". If you read my original comment, I was specifically avoiding that particular topic because I knew it wasn't what you were discussing. It's pretty frustrating how all of these replies are acting like I introduced duress passwords to the conversation.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "the better defense against brute forcing is to wipe the data after too many failures." Is it though? I thought some intelligence agencies have the ability to bypass the tries counter. In that case, the password would still trigger the wipe. That's not as easy to defeat because they don't know what password to avoid during the attempt, as opposed to knowing that after 10 tries it will wipe.
    - jethro_tell 5y ago
      Maybe, but you'd have to be there to type the password, in which case you could just get it wrong a few times and you'd be in the same place.
      - Schiendelman 5y ago
        If you get it wrong a few times they hit you with a $5 wrench and/or you go to prison for obstruction of justice.
        Terry_Roll 5y ago
        How can you go to prison for obstruction of justice when files are encrypted with passwords you dont know? In the 90's I had a Visual Basic addon which was an AI that monitored the keyboard typing pattern. It could identify who was typing at the keyboard, so you could use it as a backup to lock the system if someone had discovered the password. That app could also be used to encrypt files independently, and only decrypt files when the typing pattern matched the username and password. Not the only thing which could be used to decide if someone is the genuine user, some users might have tic's like tourettes, but involve unusual mouse movements or clicks. Or they could be things like having to switch on the NumLock on a keyboard in order to type in a numerical password. These are all very subtle behaviours which might not be spotted by someone after the password to get into a system. Edit So windows has had AI built into its gui since at least Windows 200, really noticeable in XP, its the benign sounding Mouse Properties "Enhance pointer precision", but this can also be used to work out who is using the windows GUI by comparing the operation of the GUI, things like do windows get resized or maximmised, do some programs tend to be use on a particular monitor (if a multimonitor setup), and how on target is the user when closing a window, ie where do they consistently hit the big red X close button in the top right of a window and how quickly do they do this. All this is meta data to further workout who is actually using the computer or not. Linux AFAIK doesnt have this so you have more privacy with Linux in some respects.
  - jbay808 5y ago
    It would be really annoying if my cat could wipe my hard drive just by walking on the keyboard when I'm in the bathroom.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      I turned off my auto wipe (number of tries) because of my toddler.
      - jethro_tell 5y ago
        Had a work phone where that wasn't an option, when my kids were little they'd grab the phone and blackmail me with a wipe. Kind of funny but also a pain in the ass.
        joosters 5y ago
        Doesn't it take hours of wrong password entries before a wipe? The delay between attempts gets longer and longer (at least on ios), you can't just quickly tap in loads of wrong passwords and wipe an iphone in a minute.
        jethro_tell 5y ago
        In my situation the company requires wipe after 5 or 10. I don't remember how long the timeout was but being blocked out of your work phone while you're oncall is also a massive pain in the ass.
    - djur 5y ago
      To be clear, I'm not really endorsing that approach, just saying that it's probably more effective than making "sexgod123" a secret land mine password.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Russian government is stopping people on the street, demanding to see their phone contents. If you can show a fake profile, you are safe. If you wipe data, you might be beaten, tased and jailed.
    - worker767424 5y ago
      You didn't get a burner smart phone once Apple and Google added covid trackers?
  - franga2000 5y ago
    Duress passwords aren't there to stop brute-forcing, they're there to save your life in the event of wrench-based cryptoanalysis [0]. Think "log into this system or I shoot you". Using a duress vs regular password should look identical and give away as much information/access as you can afford so your odds of being found out (and subsequent shot) are as low as possible. Even if configured as sef-destruct (in cases where you value system security more than your life), it's still better than a basic panic button (ideally you want both). You can point a gun at someone and tell them to keep their hands away from a button, but eventually you'll need to have them open a locked door for you and in that moment they are free to type anything on the keypad, be it "open door and call the cops" or "blow up the whole building" and you won't know what they typed until it's too late to stop them. [0] https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
    - giantg2 5y ago
      True. I think that's mostly an edge case though. The vast majority of the time it's the police forcing a person to unlock a device.
    - djur 5y ago
      I'm aware of that, which is why the comment you're replying to suggested that duress passwords are not a good defense against brute forcing.

by djur 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

The fact that you remember the one from a videogame, makes it seem like that would be a good candidate password for this purpose. If it's used to wipe the data (which is backed up), then it shouldn't need to be as secure as a regular password. In fact, it might be preferable to be less secure so that someone trying to brute force would hit the duress password first.

djur 5y ago
If we're talking about the specific case of duress passwords, sure. Although in that case the better defense against brute forcing is to wipe the data after too many failures. And at some point you might as well just put a "self destruct" button on there and skip the need for a password.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  Wiping is the simplest and dumbest use of the ability to use passwords, or indeed the whole name + password pair, as essentially a command prompt. Have some imagination.
  - djur 5y ago
    I was responding to a comment that said "[i]f it's used to wipe the data...". If you read my original comment, I was specifically avoiding that particular topic because I knew it wasn't what you were discussing. It's pretty frustrating how all of these replies are acting like I introduced duress passwords to the conversation.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "the better defense against brute forcing is to wipe the data after too many failures." Is it though? I thought some intelligence agencies have the ability to bypass the tries counter. In that case, the password would still trigger the wipe. That's not as easy to defeat because they don't know what password to avoid during the attempt, as opposed to knowing that after 10 tries it will wipe.
  - jethro_tell 5y ago
    Maybe, but you'd have to be there to type the password, in which case you could just get it wrong a few times and you'd be in the same place.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      If you get it wrong a few times they hit you with a $5 wrench and/or you go to prison for obstruction of justice.
      - Terry_Roll 5y ago
        How can you go to prison for obstruction of justice when files are encrypted with passwords you dont know? In the 90's I had a Visual Basic addon which was an AI that monitored the keyboard typing pattern. It could identify who was typing at the keyboard, so you could use it as a backup to lock the system if someone had discovered the password. That app could also be used to encrypt files independently, and only decrypt files when the typing pattern matched the username and password. Not the only thing which could be used to decide if someone is the genuine user, some users might have tic's like tourettes, but involve unusual mouse movements or clicks. Or they could be things like having to switch on the NumLock on a keyboard in order to type in a numerical password. These are all very subtle behaviours which might not be spotted by someone after the password to get into a system. Edit So windows has had AI built into its gui since at least Windows 200, really noticeable in XP, its the benign sounding Mouse Properties "Enhance pointer precision", but this can also be used to work out who is using the windows GUI by comparing the operation of the GUI, things like do windows get resized or maximmised, do some programs tend to be use on a particular monitor (if a multimonitor setup), and how on target is the user when closing a window, ie where do they consistently hit the big red X close button in the top right of a window and how quickly do they do this. All this is meta data to further workout who is actually using the computer or not. Linux AFAIK doesnt have this so you have more privacy with Linux in some respects.
- jbay808 5y ago
  It would be really annoying if my cat could wipe my hard drive just by walking on the keyboard when I'm in the bathroom.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I turned off my auto wipe (number of tries) because of my toddler.
    - jethro_tell 5y ago
      Had a work phone where that wasn't an option, when my kids were little they'd grab the phone and blackmail me with a wipe. Kind of funny but also a pain in the ass.
      - joosters 5y ago
        Doesn't it take hours of wrong password entries before a wipe? The delay between attempts gets longer and longer (at least on ios), you can't just quickly tap in loads of wrong passwords and wipe an iphone in a minute.
        jethro_tell 5y ago
        In my situation the company requires wipe after 5 or 10. I don't remember how long the timeout was but being blocked out of your work phone while you're oncall is also a massive pain in the ass.
  - djur 5y ago
    To be clear, I'm not really endorsing that approach, just saying that it's probably more effective than making "sexgod123" a secret land mine password.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Russian government is stopping people on the street, demanding to see their phone contents. If you can show a fake profile, you are safe. If you wipe data, you might be beaten, tased and jailed.
  - worker767424 5y ago
    You didn't get a burner smart phone once Apple and Google added covid trackers?
- franga2000 5y ago
  Duress passwords aren't there to stop brute-forcing, they're there to save your life in the event of wrench-based cryptoanalysis [0]. Think "log into this system or I shoot you". Using a duress vs regular password should look identical and give away as much information/access as you can afford so your odds of being found out (and subsequent shot) are as low as possible. Even if configured as sef-destruct (in cases where you value system security more than your life), it's still better than a basic panic button (ideally you want both). You can point a gun at someone and tell them to keep their hands away from a button, but eventually you'll need to have them open a locked door for you and in that moment they are free to type anything on the keypad, be it "open door and call the cops" or "blow up the whole building" and you won't know what they typed until it's too late to stop them. [0] https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
  - giantg2 5y ago
    True. I think that's mostly an edge case though. The vast majority of the time it's the police forcing a person to unlock a device.
  - djur 5y ago
    I'm aware of that, which is why the comment you're replying to suggested that duress passwords are not a good defense against brute forcing.