4 ms·

I was asked this in London in 2016 outside Embankment tube. I declined and impolitely suggested that the officer should piss off or arrest me. He didn’t take th

by hughrr 5y ago

I was asked this in London in 2016 outside Embankment tube. I declined and impolitely suggested that the officer should piss off or arrest me. He didn’t take the matter any further after eyeing up the probability that I’d sue them. The point is really that a lot of people are intimidated and compliant and will hand a device over when requested. This is never a good thing. Even if you’re legitimately a victim, you shouldn’t even let them at your stuff.

heavenlyblue 5y ago
Was that drug related? What was officer’s motivation/aim if you know by any chance?
- hughrr 5y ago
  I wasn’t party to the reason but you’re probably right.
gruez 5y ago
>The point is really that a lot of people are intimidated and compliant and will hand a device over when requested. This is never a good thing. Even if you’re legitimately a victim, you shouldn’t even let them at your stuff. That's addressed by the OP >People spoiled by western TV shows may talk about probably cause, privacy, rights etc. (which may exist on paper in these places too), but you’d be in a lot of trouble if you’re not very rich and know powerful people. These checks can also take an ethnic or other angle where only certain people are stopped. There's a strong legal system (eg. due process, habeas corpus) that protects you in uk. No such system exists in Russia. Similarly, if you tried pulling this in china, and you're a Uyghur, that's just going to end up with you in a reeducation camp.
- logifail 5y ago
  > There's a strong legal system (eg. due process, habeas corpus) that protects you in uk Sometimes the authorities appear to have the law on their side, examples included people detained under the Terrorism Act(s)[0] and those who are singled out by the police under "stop and search" powers[1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald-guardian-partner-detained-heathrow https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwal... [1] https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/analyses/no-105-uk-section-44.pdf https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/analyses/no-105-u...
pm90 5y ago
> The point is really that a lot of people are intimidated and compliant and will hand a device over when requested. This is never a good thing. Even if you’re legitimately a victim, you shouldn’t even let them at your stuff. Did you read the parents comment? Resistance might work in the UK but in places like India, unless you’re well connected the police can make your life miserable.
- hughrr 5y ago
  It doesn’t always work in the UK though. If I wasn’t white and middle class and looked poor then the outcome would be different. Really most people don’t have the ability to defend themselves from this and the police know that. The problem is that this is where the downward spiral starts.
pjc50 5y ago
Yup. ICO investigations into this practice: https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2617838/ico-report-on-mpe-in-england-and-wales-v1_1.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2617838/ico... and https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2620095/ico-investigation-mpe-scotland-202106.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2620095/ico...
madaxe_again 5y ago
The U.K. isn’t “such places”. There are plenty of places where the cops are so indemnified and corrupt that it’d make your head spin. You have little choice but to go with the shakedown (it’s often a bribe they want), unless you are prepared to go to jail and face unknown consequences on a point of principle. I’ve been there, I’ve done that, I keep a €50 in my passport when travelling in those parts, it’s acceptable identification if it’s what they’re after, if it isn’t, it was in there accidentally.
- fauigerzigerk 5y ago
  I would only do that if I had something on my phone that carries heavier punishment than bribing an officer. I think it’s a mistake to think that as a foreigner you can just do as the locals do when it comes to bribery. It could end very badly. Doing it to avoid some inconvenience is a bad idea.
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    What you have on your phone is likely immaterial in the equation - the mindset is one of sunk costs - once they’ve stopped you for a search, they’ll want to have something to show for their time - either to bring you in, or a bribe. You absolutely have to read the situation, and gauge how it’s likely to go down. I can tell you that in Russia, 95% of the time a bribe is wanted. The other 5%, usually greenhorns, you just work up their chain of command until you find the guy who will take the bribe. I’ve been frogmarched to a cop shop in Bishkek by an excited rookie who caught a foreigner smoking a cigarette, only to end up being given a name to drop for future occasions by his commandant after giving him €100 for a birthday gift for his daughter. Whole thing was ridiculous. It’s also worth noting that if you are an obvious foreigner, you will be a bribe magnet, and will be accosted only in the hope of a bribe. It’s not so much about avoiding inconvenience, it’s about moving freely in a police state.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  yeah bribes are very common and still quite dangerous, if they think you have more to offer you may find yourself with an after-hours follow-up visit… after one bad experience I try to have a decoy answer available to the “where are you staying” question.
waffleiron 5y ago
I recently had a passport check within Schengen that wasn't on list of temporary exceptions [1]. I did not have it in me to say no even when I knew it was very likely illegal. I might not have gotten officially arrested, but they would have likely taken me off the train and thus having to buy a new ticket and lose 2 hours of my day. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/schengen-borders-...
- mvdwoord 5y ago
  As long as two hours of your time is worth more to you then maintaining basic civil rights... you deserve neither. Especially in schengen countries.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    You are saying that because of my action (not refusing a illegal check) I don't deserve basic civil rights? Seriously...
    - yulker 5y ago
      The implication isn't that you personally don't deserve them, but rather that any rights you think you deserve if you're not willing to stand up for them will likely be taken from you in time.
- derriz 5y ago
  In many European continental law countries - notably France but many others, you can be asked to present a national identification card (or passport, if foreign) by police/government security at any time and are expected to be able to comply. This is independent of Schengen or border control - it also applies to residents of the country going about their normal business.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    This was Germany, where the same is true. However it's not allowed to use that as a stand-in for a border control. European Regulation is quite explicit on internal Schengen borders: > 23(a) the exercise of police powers by the competent authorities of the Member States under national law, insofar as the exercise of those powers does not have an effect equivalent to border checks; that shall also apply in border areas. Within the meaning of the first sentence, the exercise of police powers may not, in particular, be considered equivalent to the exercise of border checks when the police measures: > (i) do not have border control as an objective; > (ii) are based on general police information and experience regarding possible threats to public security and aim, in particular, to combat cross-border crime; > (iii) are devised and executed in a manner clearly distinct from systematic checks on persons at the external borders; > (iv) are carried out on the basis of spot-checks; This check likely broke both 23(a)(i) and 23(a)(iii), as at the first train stop past the border everyone was asked to present ID. [1] Regulation (EU) 2016/399 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 9 March 2016 on a Union Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code)
ab_testing 5y ago
Try doing the same while being black in the US. Being arrested would be the best outcome that you wish would happen to you.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  This is utter nonsense.
- fidesomnes 5y ago
- mdoms 5y ago
  You need to get some perspective bud.
- CAPSLOCKSSTUCK 5y ago
  Funny to see how delusional the replies to this are

by hughrr 5y ago

heavenlyblue 5y ago

Was that drug related? What was officer’s motivation/aim if you know by any chance?

hughrr 5y ago
I wasn’t party to the reason but you’re probably right.

gruez 5y ago

>The point is really that a lot of people are intimidated and compliant and will hand a device over when requested. This is never a good thing. Even if you’re legitimately a victim, you shouldn’t even let them at your stuff. That's addressed by the OP >People spoiled by western TV shows may talk about probably cause, privacy, rights etc. (which may exist on paper in these places too), but you’d be in a lot of trouble if you’re not very rich and know powerful people. These checks can also take an ethnic or other angle where only certain people are stopped. There's a strong legal system (eg. due process, habeas corpus) that protects you in uk. No such system exists in Russia. Similarly, if you tried pulling this in china, and you're a Uyghur, that's just going to end up with you in a reeducation camp.

logifail 5y ago
> There's a strong legal system (eg. due process, habeas corpus) that protects you in uk Sometimes the authorities appear to have the law on their side, examples included people detained under the Terrorism Act(s)[0] and those who are singled out by the police under "stop and search" powers[1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald-guardian-partner-detained-heathrow https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwal... [1] https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/analyses/no-105-uk-section-44.pdf https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/analyses/no-105-u...

pm90 5y ago

> The point is really that a lot of people are intimidated and compliant and will hand a device over when requested. This is never a good thing. Even if you’re legitimately a victim, you shouldn’t even let them at your stuff. Did you read the parents comment? Resistance might work in the UK but in places like India, unless you’re well connected the police can make your life miserable.

hughrr 5y ago
It doesn’t always work in the UK though. If I wasn’t white and middle class and looked poor then the outcome would be different. Really most people don’t have the ability to defend themselves from this and the police know that. The problem is that this is where the downward spiral starts.

pjc50 5y ago

Yup. ICO investigations into this practice: https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2617838/ico-report-on-mpe-in-england-and-wales-v1_1.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2617838/ico... and https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2620095/ico-investigation-mpe-scotland-202106.pdf https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/documents/2620095/ico...

madaxe_again 5y ago

The U.K. isn’t “such places”. There are plenty of places where the cops are so indemnified and corrupt that it’d make your head spin. You have little choice but to go with the shakedown (it’s often a bribe they want), unless you are prepared to go to jail and face unknown consequences on a point of principle. I’ve been there, I’ve done that, I keep a €50 in my passport when travelling in those parts, it’s acceptable identification if it’s what they’re after, if it isn’t, it was in there accidentally.

fauigerzigerk 5y ago
I would only do that if I had something on my phone that carries heavier punishment than bribing an officer. I think it’s a mistake to think that as a foreigner you can just do as the locals do when it comes to bribery. It could end very badly. Doing it to avoid some inconvenience is a bad idea.
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  What you have on your phone is likely immaterial in the equation - the mindset is one of sunk costs - once they’ve stopped you for a search, they’ll want to have something to show for their time - either to bring you in, or a bribe. You absolutely have to read the situation, and gauge how it’s likely to go down. I can tell you that in Russia, 95% of the time a bribe is wanted. The other 5%, usually greenhorns, you just work up their chain of command until you find the guy who will take the bribe. I’ve been frogmarched to a cop shop in Bishkek by an excited rookie who caught a foreigner smoking a cigarette, only to end up being given a name to drop for future occasions by his commandant after giving him €100 for a birthday gift for his daughter. Whole thing was ridiculous. It’s also worth noting that if you are an obvious foreigner, you will be a bribe magnet, and will be accosted only in the hope of a bribe. It’s not so much about avoiding inconvenience, it’s about moving freely in a police state.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
yeah bribes are very common and still quite dangerous, if they think you have more to offer you may find yourself with an after-hours follow-up visit… after one bad experience I try to have a decoy answer available to the “where are you staying” question.

waffleiron 5y ago

I recently had a passport check within Schengen that wasn't on list of temporary exceptions [1]. I did not have it in me to say no even when I knew it was very likely illegal. I might not have gotten officially arrested, but they would have likely taken me off the train and thus having to buy a new ticket and lose 2 hours of my day. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/schengen-borders-...

mvdwoord 5y ago
As long as two hours of your time is worth more to you then maintaining basic civil rights... you deserve neither. Especially in schengen countries.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  You are saying that because of my action (not refusing a illegal check) I don't deserve basic civil rights? Seriously...
  - yulker 5y ago
    The implication isn't that you personally don't deserve them, but rather that any rights you think you deserve if you're not willing to stand up for them will likely be taken from you in time.
derriz 5y ago
In many European continental law countries - notably France but many others, you can be asked to present a national identification card (or passport, if foreign) by police/government security at any time and are expected to be able to comply. This is independent of Schengen or border control - it also applies to residents of the country going about their normal business.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  This was Germany, where the same is true. However it's not allowed to use that as a stand-in for a border control. European Regulation is quite explicit on internal Schengen borders: > 23(a) the exercise of police powers by the competent authorities of the Member States under national law, insofar as the exercise of those powers does not have an effect equivalent to border checks; that shall also apply in border areas. Within the meaning of the first sentence, the exercise of police powers may not, in particular, be considered equivalent to the exercise of border checks when the police measures: > (i) do not have border control as an objective; > (ii) are based on general police information and experience regarding possible threats to public security and aim, in particular, to combat cross-border crime; > (iii) are devised and executed in a manner clearly distinct from systematic checks on persons at the external borders; > (iv) are carried out on the basis of spot-checks; This check likely broke both 23(a)(i) and 23(a)(iii), as at the first train stop past the border everyone was asked to present ID. [1] Regulation (EU) 2016/399 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 9 March 2016 on a Union Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code)

ab_testing 5y ago

Try doing the same while being black in the US. Being arrested would be the best outcome that you wish would happen to you.

stickfigure 5y ago
This is utter nonsense.
fidesomnes 5y ago
mdoms 5y ago
You need to get some perspective bud.
CAPSLOCKSSTUCK 5y ago
Funny to see how delusional the replies to this are