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A large percentage of homes in Germany use gas for heating and Germany imports a lot of that gas. Coupled with Germany being the biggest emitter of CO2 in Euro

A large percentage of homes in Germany use gas for heating and Germany imports a lot of that gas. Coupled with Germany being the biggest emitter of CO2 in Europe, nuclear looks like a way to kill two birds with one stone.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
They should immediately bend some of their manufacturing assets toward the goal of electrification. We need all heating to be electrified in the next 20-50 years anyway. No time like the present to start working on this effort.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  Does Germany mostly use forced air or boilers for heat? Forced air is easier to switch to electric heat pumps, AFAICT.
  - garionion 5y ago
    Nearly every Building uses Boilers for heating
- ausudhz 5y ago
  Yes then we produce electricity with Russian gas :)
- barney54 5y ago
  Where is the electricity going to come from? Especially if they are closing nuclear and coal-fired power plants. They are building some renewables, but prices for electricity were high this year because wind speeds were low.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Renewables and nuclear. That new sources of energy should be carbon free goes without saying. New coal is obviously a non-starter. That being said, they are already well on their way with this process. Check out the decline in fossil fuel electric generation over the past half decade! https://www.eia.gov/international/data/country/DEU/electricity/electricity-generation?pd=2&p=00000000000000000000000000000fvu&u=0&f=A&v=mapbubble&a=-&i=none&vo=value&&t=C&g=none&l=249--55&s=315532800000&e=1577836800000 https://www.eia.gov/international/data/country/DEU/electrici...
patall 5y ago
Do you have a spare nuclear power plant? Because Germany does not. The three still running have been run down over the last 10 years (as shut down was plannend long term), those will not be run any longer. If you want to kill two bird with one stone, you better have a stone. Without one, you are screwed.
- ianpurton 5y ago
  I don't have a spare plant no. So if nuclear is the answer, Germany will need to see what it takes to reverse a long term shut down or build new.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    Or stop buying Russian energy and start buying French energy I think that Sweden burns garbage to warm houses. Maybe exploring it could be useful.
    - patall 5y ago
      Afaik, all European nations burn some of their garbage. Here is a list of German incinerators: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/377/bilder/muellverbrennungsanlagen.png https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/37.... I think, the heat is barely used for warming houses, but then, most people don't want to have an incinerator in their neighborhood. The European power grid is very much already a thing and France exported 9.5 TWh of power to Germany last year (and imported 3.7TWh): https://energy-charts.info/charts/import_export/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&year=2021 https://energy-charts.info/charts/import_export/chart.htm?l=.... I think the cards a pretty much on the table at this point. What's left is various industry groups trying to get a bigger share of the to be invested money. Some think that the war won't last long enough for the next winter and as Russia 'has always delivered', it won't be an issue anyways. Also, there are still coal back-up plants. It wouldn't be nice but people will not die because of this.
- mbar84 5y ago
  Since it was a political decision to shut them down, it's hard for me as an outside observer to judge a statement that they've been "run down". Is there an independent assessment of the safety of the existing power plants, free from political influence?
masklinn 5y ago
> A large percentage of homes in Germany use gas for heating and Germany imports a lot of that gas. I'd wager that's the case of most european countries. It's certainly the case for france: in 2020 nat gas was 40% of heating, then wood at 30, electricity at 15 (including heat pumps), and then oil. France consumes nearly as much energy in nat gas (in Wh) as it produces electricity, and that's with very little nat gas going towards electricity unlike some of its neighbours.
fsh 5y ago
Germany consumes the equivalent of 3300 PJ of natural gas per year, mostly for heating. This is an average heating power of 105 GW. Probably less than that in summer, and a lot more in winter. Considering how expensive nuclear power is, I don't see that kind of capacity being added anywhere in Europe. Renewables might have a better chance against fossil fuel in the near future.
- yodelshady 5y ago
  JFC, The entire land area of Germany devoted to wind turbines would not produce that right now. Germany heats with Russian gas, or nuclear, or does not.
  - Krasnol 5y ago
    No...Germany heats with Gas or coal. Electrical heating is negligible (not even 3%)[1] as was nuclear in it's current status. It's no no-topic at this point. You don't need it. It causes more problems to keep it running than continuing to shut it down. Also...there is no scenario and never was to build ONLY wind turbines...there are many scenarios which consider ALL of the renewable sources and you don't even need "the entire land of Germany" for it...[2] [1] https://www.bmwi-energiewende.de/EWD/Redaktion/Newsletter/2021/02/Meldung/direkt-erfasst_infografik.html https://www.bmwi-energiewende.de/EWD/Redaktion/Newsletter/20... [2] https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Navigation/DE/Service/Erneuerbare_Energien_in_Zahlen/Aktuelle-Informationen/aktuelle-informationen.html https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Navigation/DE/Service...
dirkt 5y ago
Except that you can't use nuclear for heating - not unless you exchange all gas heaters with electric heaters. Which we are trying to get rid off, as they are the most inefficient form of heating.
- stephen999 5y ago
  A heat pump is efficient.
  - danuker 5y ago
    With today's absurd gas prices, in Romania, even a resistive heater using hydropower costs less than a gas-powered heater. If you use heat pumps, that goes even cheaper (by the CoP of the heat pump). You can switch power or gas suppliers at any time.
- DennisP 5y ago
  Given a choice between efficiently burning carbon or inefficiently using a zero-carbon energy source, the inefficient solution seems far superior.
- polski-g 5y ago
  Electrical heaters' efficiency is literally 100%. Do you mean the conversion into electrical energy is "the most inefficient"?
- alerighi 5y ago
  False, an electric heater is 100% efficient (it's a pure resistive load). But these days we can do better, and you would say that we can't to better than 100% efficiency, but indeed we can with heat pumps, that are 300% efficient or more. Because they use electricity to move heat from one place (the exterior) to another (the interior), and they can transport more heat than the one they consume in the process. Also, you can use nuclear also for direct heating, without passing trough electricity: city near the power plant can use the waste heat from cooling the reactor as city heating, that is with pipes that bring hot water in the homes for heating the radiators or making domestic hot water. Of course that is doable only for a city very near to the reactor, since transporting the heat have losses. But it was common in old soviet cities to use that form of heating.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

They should immediately bend some of their manufacturing assets toward the goal of electrification. We need all heating to be electrified in the next 20-50 years anyway. No time like the present to start working on this effort.

bryanlarsen 5y ago
Does Germany mostly use forced air or boilers for heat? Forced air is easier to switch to electric heat pumps, AFAICT.
- garionion 5y ago
  Nearly every Building uses Boilers for heating
ausudhz 5y ago
Yes then we produce electricity with Russian gas :)
barney54 5y ago
Where is the electricity going to come from? Especially if they are closing nuclear and coal-fired power plants. They are building some renewables, but prices for electricity were high this year because wind speeds were low.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Renewables and nuclear. That new sources of energy should be carbon free goes without saying. New coal is obviously a non-starter. That being said, they are already well on their way with this process. Check out the decline in fossil fuel electric generation over the past half decade! https://www.eia.gov/international/data/country/DEU/electricity/electricity-generation?pd=2&p=00000000000000000000000000000fvu&u=0&f=A&v=mapbubble&a=-&i=none&vo=value&&t=C&g=none&l=249--55&s=315532800000&e=1577836800000 https://www.eia.gov/international/data/country/DEU/electrici...

patall 5y ago

Do you have a spare nuclear power plant? Because Germany does not. The three still running have been run down over the last 10 years (as shut down was plannend long term), those will not be run any longer. If you want to kill two bird with one stone, you better have a stone. Without one, you are screwed.

ianpurton 5y ago
I don't have a spare plant no. So if nuclear is the answer, Germany will need to see what it takes to reverse a long term shut down or build new.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Or stop buying Russian energy and start buying French energy I think that Sweden burns garbage to warm houses. Maybe exploring it could be useful.
  - patall 5y ago
    Afaik, all European nations burn some of their garbage. Here is a list of German incinerators: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/377/bilder/muellverbrennungsanlagen.png https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/37.... I think, the heat is barely used for warming houses, but then, most people don't want to have an incinerator in their neighborhood. The European power grid is very much already a thing and France exported 9.5 TWh of power to Germany last year (and imported 3.7TWh): https://energy-charts.info/charts/import_export/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&year=2021 https://energy-charts.info/charts/import_export/chart.htm?l=.... I think the cards a pretty much on the table at this point. What's left is various industry groups trying to get a bigger share of the to be invested money. Some think that the war won't last long enough for the next winter and as Russia 'has always delivered', it won't be an issue anyways. Also, there are still coal back-up plants. It wouldn't be nice but people will not die because of this.
mbar84 5y ago
Since it was a political decision to shut them down, it's hard for me as an outside observer to judge a statement that they've been "run down". Is there an independent assessment of the safety of the existing power plants, free from political influence?

masklinn 5y ago

> A large percentage of homes in Germany use gas for heating and Germany imports a lot of that gas. I'd wager that's the case of most european countries. It's certainly the case for france: in 2020 nat gas was 40% of heating, then wood at 30, electricity at 15 (including heat pumps), and then oil. France consumes nearly as much energy in nat gas (in Wh) as it produces electricity, and that's with very little nat gas going towards electricity unlike some of its neighbours.

fsh 5y ago

Germany consumes the equivalent of 3300 PJ of natural gas per year, mostly for heating. This is an average heating power of 105 GW. Probably less than that in summer, and a lot more in winter. Considering how expensive nuclear power is, I don't see that kind of capacity being added anywhere in Europe. Renewables might have a better chance against fossil fuel in the near future.

yodelshady 5y ago
JFC, The entire land area of Germany devoted to wind turbines would not produce that right now. Germany heats with Russian gas, or nuclear, or does not.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  No...Germany heats with Gas or coal. Electrical heating is negligible (not even 3%)[1] as was nuclear in it's current status. It's no no-topic at this point. You don't need it. It causes more problems to keep it running than continuing to shut it down. Also...there is no scenario and never was to build ONLY wind turbines...there are many scenarios which consider ALL of the renewable sources and you don't even need "the entire land of Germany" for it...[2] [1] https://www.bmwi-energiewende.de/EWD/Redaktion/Newsletter/2021/02/Meldung/direkt-erfasst_infografik.html https://www.bmwi-energiewende.de/EWD/Redaktion/Newsletter/20... [2] https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Navigation/DE/Service/Erneuerbare_Energien_in_Zahlen/Aktuelle-Informationen/aktuelle-informationen.html https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Navigation/DE/Service...

dirkt 5y ago

Except that you can't use nuclear for heating - not unless you exchange all gas heaters with electric heaters. Which we are trying to get rid off, as they are the most inefficient form of heating.

stephen999 5y ago
A heat pump is efficient.
- danuker 5y ago
  With today's absurd gas prices, in Romania, even a resistive heater using hydropower costs less than a gas-powered heater. If you use heat pumps, that goes even cheaper (by the CoP of the heat pump). You can switch power or gas suppliers at any time.
DennisP 5y ago
Given a choice between efficiently burning carbon or inefficiently using a zero-carbon energy source, the inefficient solution seems far superior.
polski-g 5y ago
Electrical heaters' efficiency is literally 100%. Do you mean the conversion into electrical energy is "the most inefficient"?
alerighi 5y ago
False, an electric heater is 100% efficient (it's a pure resistive load). But these days we can do better, and you would say that we can't to better than 100% efficiency, but indeed we can with heat pumps, that are 300% efficient or more. Because they use electricity to move heat from one place (the exterior) to another (the interior), and they can transport more heat than the one they consume in the process. Also, you can use nuclear also for direct heating, without passing trough electricity: city near the power plant can use the waste heat from cooling the reactor as city heating, that is with pipes that bring hot water in the homes for heating the radiators or making domestic hot water. Of course that is doable only for a city very near to the reactor, since transporting the heat have losses. But it was common in old soviet cities to use that form of heating.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]