4 ms·

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

12 points by another_why 5y ago

belter 5y ago
[flagged]
- rvz 5y ago
  The Nazi problem in Croatia definitely fits what the article is describing as found in Ukraine. In the US however, it's hardly comparable or the same thing and the Guardian article has been debunked to death (As the orange man already condemned them years ago which that was cut out by the media). So this is half whataboutism.
  - belter 5y ago
    Such a lovely person. How could somebody forget, when he invited his opponents to use the same concentration camp era symbol, to target his political opponents. https://hyperallergic.com/573716/trumps-sinister-appropriation-of-the-nazi-triangle-camp-badge/ https://hyperallergic.com/573716/trumps-sinister-appropriati...
    - rvz 5y ago
      Conspiracy theories and strange similarities or associations isn't definitive evidence that supports the 'Trump is an actual neo-Nazi' claim. It's just pure speculation. Perhaps, this is what happens when you keep chasing Nazi conspiracy theories everywhere, especially from Nazi historians dedicated to looking at dog-whistles, symbols etc to associate a person or group to being a 'true' neo-Nazi. Still Whataboutism.
- another_why 5y ago
  > Now let's back to the more pressing issues? Like QE, inflation and gas prices which are masked with this gigantic and enormously important military conflict? I agree
  - belter 5y ago
    No doubt for some this terrible tragedy could not come at a better moment. Like the buffoon currently clowning as UK prime minister... "Son of KGB agent handed a seat in the Lords" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-and-brexiteers-boris-johnsons-peerage-list-revealed-kh87sqqxm https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-...
    - another_why 5y ago
      > "Son of KGB agent handed a seat in the Lords" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-... lol
    - fkfkno 5y ago
- brigandish 5y ago
  I can't believe anyone still brings up Trump and a "refusal" to denounce white supremacy. It seems to me that there were so many opportunities to criticise Trump - as there is for any president, to be fair - that I have to wonder why the media persists in undermining their own reputation with this kind of nonsense instead, but it must be because it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc
  - belter 5y ago
    He did more than refuse... "Trump Defends White-Nationalist Protesters: 'Some Very Fine People on Both Sides" https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-d... Did the media made that one also?
    - brigandish 5y ago
      > Did the media made that one also? Yes, there are transcripts[1] that make clear that the media were not being honest. Let's take the very first line of the link you've provided: > President Trump defended the white nationalists who protested in Charlottesville on Tuesday, saying they included “some very fine people,” He did no such thing: > THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee. So before he makes the "fine people on both sides" comment he makes clear - several times, in fact - that there were not only alt-left and alt-right at that event but others who were either protesting the statues or defending them that were "ordinary" people i.e. fine people. Again, how did you not know this? You are so active politically, if we take your numerous HN submissions into account, that I find it hard to believe you have missed this. [1] https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trumps-both-sides-charlottesville-presser https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trum...
      - 5y ago
jacquesm 5y ago
Heck, in NL we have them in Parliament. Let's hope Putin doesn't come here to denazify us. On top of that: Russia most likely has more Neo Nazi's in Moscow than in all of Ukraine, this is just one giant distraction from what matters: that Russia has invaded another sovereign European country.
- another_why 5y ago
  Nah,it's not a distraction, it's justification
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    A pretext, but that has nothing to do with you posting it here, that is a distraction. Ukraine currently has a Russian problem, the Nazi problem there - and elsewhere - should be dealt with but it can wait until the shells stop flying and there is - hopefully - a Ukraine left.
    - another_why 5y ago
      - jacquesm 5y ago
h2odragon 5y ago
When you're fighting an invasion of your country, its a bad time to quibble about the ideological purity of the other people on your side of the line. It really is possible to find shared goals and cooperate on achieving them with people who do not totally agree with you. Once the immediate threat is addressed, those people might be the next item on the agenda; but this is "stand together or fall separately" territory.
- jka 5y ago
  That may be reasonable; I think it's important to consider how any party's involvement will be remembered as well, though. What groups will be glorified? Will that affect the way that those groups behave, what they feel proud about, and how they are treated in future? There are a lot of roles required in successfully defending against an invasion -- maintenance, transport, heavy lifting, fighting, cooking; to name a few. Effective task assignment can be a resilience multiplier in the moment and also has a long-term echo.
- another_why 5y ago
  - pelasaco 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - another_why 5y ago
      > just have to read through your comments to see that you are Russia supporter. wut > I'm Jewish That's my favorite argument in internet discussions: "I'm Ukrainian and I don't support my government; I'm Russian and I hate Putin; I'm a liberal, but Trump is a great leader; I'm Jewish and..." > Antisemitism is part of Nazism. There is no Nazism without Antisemitism. Nazism is not about jews, it's about supremacy of the nazis nation, whatever nation it is, over other nations. > Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not! That's what the article says
artem247 5y ago
[dead]

12 points by another_why 5y ago

belter 5y ago

[flagged]

rvz 5y ago
The Nazi problem in Croatia definitely fits what the article is describing as found in Ukraine. In the US however, it's hardly comparable or the same thing and the Guardian article has been debunked to death (As the orange man already condemned them years ago which that was cut out by the media). So this is half whataboutism.
- belter 5y ago
  Such a lovely person. How could somebody forget, when he invited his opponents to use the same concentration camp era symbol, to target his political opponents. https://hyperallergic.com/573716/trumps-sinister-appropriation-of-the-nazi-triangle-camp-badge/ https://hyperallergic.com/573716/trumps-sinister-appropriati...
  - rvz 5y ago
    Conspiracy theories and strange similarities or associations isn't definitive evidence that supports the 'Trump is an actual neo-Nazi' claim. It's just pure speculation. Perhaps, this is what happens when you keep chasing Nazi conspiracy theories everywhere, especially from Nazi historians dedicated to looking at dog-whistles, symbols etc to associate a person or group to being a 'true' neo-Nazi. Still Whataboutism.
another_why 5y ago
> Now let's back to the more pressing issues? Like QE, inflation and gas prices which are masked with this gigantic and enormously important military conflict? I agree
- belter 5y ago
  No doubt for some this terrible tragedy could not come at a better moment. Like the buffoon currently clowning as UK prime minister... "Son of KGB agent handed a seat in the Lords" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-and-brexiteers-boris-johnsons-peerage-list-revealed-kh87sqqxm https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-...
  - another_why 5y ago
    > "Son of KGB agent handed a seat in the Lords" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-... lol
  - fkfkno 5y ago
brigandish 5y ago
I can't believe anyone still brings up Trump and a "refusal" to denounce white supremacy. It seems to me that there were so many opportunities to criticise Trump - as there is for any president, to be fair - that I have to wonder why the media persists in undermining their own reputation with this kind of nonsense instead, but it must be because it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc
- belter 5y ago
  He did more than refuse... "Trump Defends White-Nationalist Protesters: 'Some Very Fine People on Both Sides" https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-d... Did the media made that one also?
  - brigandish 5y ago
    > Did the media made that one also? Yes, there are transcripts[1] that make clear that the media were not being honest. Let's take the very first line of the link you've provided: > President Trump defended the white nationalists who protested in Charlottesville on Tuesday, saying they included “some very fine people,” He did no such thing: > THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee. So before he makes the "fine people on both sides" comment he makes clear - several times, in fact - that there were not only alt-left and alt-right at that event but others who were either protesting the statues or defending them that were "ordinary" people i.e. fine people. Again, how did you not know this? You are so active politically, if we take your numerous HN submissions into account, that I find it hard to believe you have missed this. [1] https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trumps-both-sides-charlottesville-presser https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trum...
    - 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

Heck, in NL we have them in Parliament. Let's hope Putin doesn't come here to denazify us. On top of that: Russia most likely has more Neo Nazi's in Moscow than in all of Ukraine, this is just one giant distraction from what matters: that Russia has invaded another sovereign European country.

another_why 5y ago
Nah,it's not a distraction, it's justification
- jacquesm 5y ago
  A pretext, but that has nothing to do with you posting it here, that is a distraction. Ukraine currently has a Russian problem, the Nazi problem there - and elsewhere - should be dealt with but it can wait until the shells stop flying and there is - hopefully - a Ukraine left.
  - another_why 5y ago
    - jacquesm 5y ago

h2odragon 5y ago

When you're fighting an invasion of your country, its a bad time to quibble about the ideological purity of the other people on your side of the line. It really is possible to find shared goals and cooperate on achieving them with people who do not totally agree with you. Once the immediate threat is addressed, those people might be the next item on the agenda; but this is "stand together or fall separately" territory.

jka 5y ago
That may be reasonable; I think it's important to consider how any party's involvement will be remembered as well, though. What groups will be glorified? Will that affect the way that those groups behave, what they feel proud about, and how they are treated in future? There are a lot of roles required in successfully defending against an invasion -- maintenance, transport, heavy lifting, fighting, cooking; to name a few. Effective task assignment can be a resilience multiplier in the moment and also has a long-term echo.
another_why 5y ago
- pelasaco 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - another_why 5y ago
    > just have to read through your comments to see that you are Russia supporter. wut > I'm Jewish That's my favorite argument in internet discussions: "I'm Ukrainian and I don't support my government; I'm Russian and I hate Putin; I'm a liberal, but Trump is a great leader; I'm Jewish and..." > Antisemitism is part of Nazism. There is no Nazism without Antisemitism. Nazism is not about jews, it's about supremacy of the nazis nation, whatever nation it is, over other nations. > Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not! That's what the article says

artem247 5y ago

[dead]