7 ms·

It is unfortunte that discussion about the Ukraine war is so absent from HN. I understand that it is a complex topic that may drown HN's real purpose, but the H

by mongol 5y ago

It is unfortunte that discussion about the Ukraine war is so absent from HN. I understand that it is a complex topic that may drown HN's real purpose, but the HN readership use to have really insightful takes on most topics.

pjc50 5y ago
You can sort of understand why, given that there's also a lot of low-quality posting as a result; this thread is already full of claims of "fake", and we have no real way of substantiating this.
Ygg2 5y ago
I think it's understandable. It's very hard to believe whatever either side is reporting. And before you say that's what Russian bots want you to believe, I'll add I lost my trust after Iraq war reporting (like who in their right mind confuses plot of The Rock (film) and WMD in real life), and then after Trump's victory in 2016 (media I was following at the time were making it out to be a sure fire thing for Hillary which is opposite of what happened). I remain a skeptic and will wait for 5+ years to see what actually happened.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > out to be a sure fire thing for Hillary which is opposite of what happened She could have probably won but Comey decided at the very end to open the email investigation again. That generated negative publicity for her.
- simion314 5y ago
  >It's very hard to believe whatever either side is reporting. You have more then Russian and Ukrainian news, there are reporters from other countries present on the ground, probably mostly English sources are link but I assure you for example there are Romanian reporters there and filming stuff, there are reporters filing refuges and asking questions. There were some Russian free press reports too you could have read/watched until recently too(maybe dig in archives) There are trolls posting fake images but if you ignore the hot new posts from social media you can get a good enough picture of reality.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- codeflo 5y ago
  It seems so easy to fall into a false balance trap. But while Western media is certainly flawed, there’s a fundamental difference between honest mistakes and intentional lies. The truth is very unlikely to be half-way between the two. Compare: The 2016 election mispredictions were one of the most discussed topics for months in the aftermath. The Bush administration’s WMD claims are still regularly discussed, at least outside of Fox News. Journalists have in general become more skeptical of US government claims as a result ever since. That’s widely considered a good thing. On the other hand: Russian media, as should be obvious for anyone with better memory than a proverbial goldfish, doesn’t even care how today’s message contradicts yesterday’s. The sanctions are ineffective and a grave act of war and must be stopped immediately and actually don’t work. Ukraine will never be attacked, and is actually Russian, and commits an anti-Russian genocide, and isn’t a nation, and will no longer be a nation if it doesn’t surrender immediately, and isn’t actually being attacked. It’s so inconsistent with itself that you don’t even need a second source to spot the lies. I might feel nice and wise and balanced, but I don’t think these are circumstances where believing “both sides” is intellectually defensible.
afavour 5y ago
I suspect the signal to noise ratio on any such discussion would be high. There are knowledgable folks in HN on non tech topics (as well as users living in Ukraine and Russia, presuming either are still able to access the site) but any discussion would likely be overrun with folks that have no particular knowledge but strong opinions they want to share instead.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  It seems that even people well versed in politics are often in the blur here.
- benreesman 5y ago
  I mean, at a bare minimum there have to be a bunch of military history / military theory / military hardware buffs on here. That would fall pretty squarely into intellectually stimulating debate where a lot of people learn stuff territory right? I’m personally curious as hell what non-classified information is available on how many RF boomers are running around, armed with what, and how closely they’re being shadowed by USN fast attack boats and I bet someone on here knows.
throwmeariver1 5y ago
- tankenmate 5y ago
  Politics ought to be adjusted not to human reasonings but to human nature, of which reason is but a part and by no means the greatest part. -- Edmund Burke To make a somewhat contra-positive corollary; If you want to remove politics you need to remove humans. -- Me HN wouldn't be much without humans.
  - throwmeariver1 5y ago
    There are a lot of communities that are functioning way better after they implemented a strict no politics policy. It's a strawman argument. Especially considering the populous of hackernews of which 90% don't believe that they can be manipulated by advertising because they are too intelligent. It's gonna be a shitshow.
    - forum_ghost 5y ago
      Better yet, seems many believe they are absolutely immune to Russian psyops, and of course the West would -never- psyop its own citizens. I've been even called a russian propagandist for linking to WaPo, a well-known Kremlin outlet. It's probably time to ban politics.
    - tankenmate 5y ago
      As soon as you have more than two people you have politics, regardless of whether it is small "p" politics or big "P" politics. Politics is a function of human communities, there is a 100% correlation. I suspect what you were looking for is not "no politics" but "be conservative in what you say and liberal in what you hear", i.e. think more of the group than yourself. Or for those who can't read between the lines; "don't be selfish".
      - throwmeariver1 5y ago
dragonwriter 5y ago
> It is unfortunte that discussion about the Ukraine war is so absent from HN. Say, what, now? I don't think war threads are staying front page very long, but there is lots of discussion happening.
varispeed 5y ago
From what I noticed on many social networks is that Russian information warfare is working on spreading their propaganda. They will be coming to derail any conversation with lies, deflection and other manipulation techniques to sow doubts in the reports coming from Ukraine. They are quite crude so it is very easy to spot them if you know what to look for. I think their propaganda is mostly targeted at people who already made up their mind or those who don't read beyond headlines. HN may not be a target network for such effort, because most people here are quite smart.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  Everyone is affected by propaganda. There’s a quote from a famous magician (maybe Penn?) that smart people are the easiest to fool because they think they’re too smart to be fooled.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    Dunning & Kruger had some choice words (backed by research) on the topic, too.
ivan90210 5y ago
grishka 5y ago
For me, it's hard to realize that while my world is on literal fire with everyone panicking, some other people in other places are living as usual.
01100011 5y ago
I think SWEs are some of the worst when it comes to projecting one's domain knowledge into other areas.
MrMan 5y ago
HN is mostly trolls, shills, libertarians and far right types, and weird bubble millennial who seem to aggressively hate everything and just want to get rich. greed and fear rule this forum and the result is very anti-intellectual. you will notice politics and actually real world concerns mostly by the absence, or the completely predictable what-about responses so the greedy people can try to get back to work. I dont care about being banned my conscience is clear.
obscurette 5y ago
Insightful takes on topics outside of IT and maybe natural/applied sciences are probably actually rare in HN. It is at least my impression on these few areas I have some expertise. Topics related to culture and stuff most people in the world don't have any experience with (violent dictatorships for example) are genuinely hard to explain even for people with real insight and knowledge. And regarding trolls in HN: this topic here is also full of comments "it's all fake", "where is the proof?" etc. It's the tactics troll factories used for years in every corner of the world. It's one of the main methods to erode the trust in societies. So, are these comments from trolls or from genuine smartasses? I don't really know.
dang 5y ago
It has certainly been the most discussed topic since the war started. The moderation issues are obviously complex but it's not off topic per se. Of course these perceptions are all relative, which is why "most discussed topic" can still feel "absent from HN".

by mongol 5y ago

pjc50 5y ago

You can sort of understand why, given that there's also a lot of low-quality posting as a result; this thread is already full of claims of "fake", and we have no real way of substantiating this.

Ygg2 5y ago

I think it's understandable. It's very hard to believe whatever either side is reporting. And before you say that's what Russian bots want you to believe, I'll add I lost my trust after Iraq war reporting (like who in their right mind confuses plot of The Rock (film) and WMD in real life), and then after Trump's victory in 2016 (media I was following at the time were making it out to be a sure fire thing for Hillary which is opposite of what happened). I remain a skeptic and will wait for 5+ years to see what actually happened.

sumedh 5y ago
> out to be a sure fire thing for Hillary which is opposite of what happened She could have probably won but Comey decided at the very end to open the email investigation again. That generated negative publicity for her.
simion314 5y ago
>It's very hard to believe whatever either side is reporting. You have more then Russian and Ukrainian news, there are reporters from other countries present on the ground, probably mostly English sources are link but I assure you for example there are Romanian reporters there and filming stuff, there are reporters filing refuges and asking questions. There were some Russian free press reports too you could have read/watched until recently too(maybe dig in archives) There are trolls posting fake images but if you ignore the hot new posts from social media you can get a good enough picture of reality.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
codeflo 5y ago
It seems so easy to fall into a false balance trap. But while Western media is certainly flawed, there’s a fundamental difference between honest mistakes and intentional lies. The truth is very unlikely to be half-way between the two. Compare: The 2016 election mispredictions were one of the most discussed topics for months in the aftermath. The Bush administration’s WMD claims are still regularly discussed, at least outside of Fox News. Journalists have in general become more skeptical of US government claims as a result ever since. That’s widely considered a good thing. On the other hand: Russian media, as should be obvious for anyone with better memory than a proverbial goldfish, doesn’t even care how today’s message contradicts yesterday’s. The sanctions are ineffective and a grave act of war and must be stopped immediately and actually don’t work. Ukraine will never be attacked, and is actually Russian, and commits an anti-Russian genocide, and isn’t a nation, and will no longer be a nation if it doesn’t surrender immediately, and isn’t actually being attacked. It’s so inconsistent with itself that you don’t even need a second source to spot the lies. I might feel nice and wise and balanced, but I don’t think these are circumstances where believing “both sides” is intellectually defensible.

afavour 5y ago

I suspect the signal to noise ratio on any such discussion would be high. There are knowledgable folks in HN on non tech topics (as well as users living in Ukraine and Russia, presuming either are still able to access the site) but any discussion would likely be overrun with folks that have no particular knowledge but strong opinions they want to share instead.

agumonkey 5y ago
It seems that even people well versed in politics are often in the blur here.
benreesman 5y ago
I mean, at a bare minimum there have to be a bunch of military history / military theory / military hardware buffs on here. That would fall pretty squarely into intellectually stimulating debate where a lot of people learn stuff territory right? I’m personally curious as hell what non-classified information is available on how many RF boomers are running around, armed with what, and how closely they’re being shadowed by USN fast attack boats and I bet someone on here knows.

throwmeariver1 5y ago

tankenmate 5y ago
Politics ought to be adjusted not to human reasonings but to human nature, of which reason is but a part and by no means the greatest part. -- Edmund Burke To make a somewhat contra-positive corollary; If you want to remove politics you need to remove humans. -- Me HN wouldn't be much without humans.
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  There are a lot of communities that are functioning way better after they implemented a strict no politics policy. It's a strawman argument. Especially considering the populous of hackernews of which 90% don't believe that they can be manipulated by advertising because they are too intelligent. It's gonna be a shitshow.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    Better yet, seems many believe they are absolutely immune to Russian psyops, and of course the West would -never- psyop its own citizens. I've been even called a russian propagandist for linking to WaPo, a well-known Kremlin outlet. It's probably time to ban politics.
  - tankenmate 5y ago
    As soon as you have more than two people you have politics, regardless of whether it is small "p" politics or big "P" politics. Politics is a function of human communities, there is a 100% correlation. I suspect what you were looking for is not "no politics" but "be conservative in what you say and liberal in what you hear", i.e. think more of the group than yourself. Or for those who can't read between the lines; "don't be selfish".
    - throwmeariver1 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> It is unfortunte that discussion about the Ukraine war is so absent from HN. Say, what, now? I don't think war threads are staying front page very long, but there is lots of discussion happening.

varispeed 5y ago

From what I noticed on many social networks is that Russian information warfare is working on spreading their propaganda. They will be coming to derail any conversation with lies, deflection and other manipulation techniques to sow doubts in the reports coming from Ukraine. They are quite crude so it is very easy to spot them if you know what to look for. I think their propaganda is mostly targeted at people who already made up their mind or those who don't read beyond headlines. HN may not be a target network for such effort, because most people here are quite smart.

kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
Everyone is affected by propaganda. There’s a quote from a famous magician (maybe Penn?) that smart people are the easiest to fool because they think they’re too smart to be fooled.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  Dunning & Kruger had some choice words (backed by research) on the topic, too.

ivan90210 5y ago

grishka 5y ago

For me, it's hard to realize that while my world is on literal fire with everyone panicking, some other people in other places are living as usual.

01100011 5y ago

I think SWEs are some of the worst when it comes to projecting one's domain knowledge into other areas.

MrMan 5y ago

HN is mostly trolls, shills, libertarians and far right types, and weird bubble millennial who seem to aggressively hate everything and just want to get rich. greed and fear rule this forum and the result is very anti-intellectual. you will notice politics and actually real world concerns mostly by the absence, or the completely predictable what-about responses so the greedy people can try to get back to work. I dont care about being banned my conscience is clear.

obscurette 5y ago

Insightful takes on topics outside of IT and maybe natural/applied sciences are probably actually rare in HN. It is at least my impression on these few areas I have some expertise. Topics related to culture and stuff most people in the world don't have any experience with (violent dictatorships for example) are genuinely hard to explain even for people with real insight and knowledge. And regarding trolls in HN: this topic here is also full of comments "it's all fake", "where is the proof?" etc. It's the tactics troll factories used for years in every corner of the world. It's one of the main methods to erode the trust in societies. So, are these comments from trolls or from genuine smartasses? I don't really know.

dang 5y ago

It has certainly been the most discussed topic since the war started. The moderation issues are obviously complex but it's not off topic per se. Of course these perceptions are all relative, which is why "most discussed topic" can still feel "absent from HN".