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The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvi

The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvious propaganda, has made the world smaller yet more interconnected than ever.

sjaak 5y ago
Something else will replace it. Tribalism is built in to our ‘firmware’.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Unfortunately in the West I think this might be identity politics. There is very much a "us Vs them" attitude with the whole thing. To give an example I see a lot of LGBT "allies" with pin badges, flags, etc. To label oneself as being part of that group. Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider.
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    > Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider. Not my sense at all.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    I feel weird if I select the yellow emoji color since everyone on our internal slack is gung ho about their skin color. Same with pronouns, almost indirectly mandated at this point.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - saila 5y ago
    Modern identity politics in the U.S. seems like the inevitable result of telling people they are "free" but then excluding certain identified groups from social life, jobs, etc. Over time, people will bond around their exclusion to create a more powerful bloc to assert their rights. It seems to me that the dominant identitarians of the past have largely created the current situation by not following the creed of "live and let live." Conservatives and the right engage in extreme identity politics, but "identity politics" is most often used as a pejorative against liberals and the left. I wonder why that is. Modern identities probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for historical identification/classification and discrimination.
    - bilbo0s 5y ago
      Identity politics would always exist. We just called it "tribalism" in our distant past. It can never go away. It isn't specific to the US either, it's a part of us as humans. That's the real reason there are no "free" countries. I guarantee, you look closely enough, you'll find the group in that country that is not "free". People just knock the US all the time because the group in our nation that is not "free" is pretty obvious to everyone in the world. But all the other nations are just as bad. I've been to a lot of them, so I can promise you that. There is not shining example of non-tribalist freedom out there, and only the ready and frequent application of force would ever create such a nation. Even then, it would be against the will of many of that nation's citizens.
      - saila 5y ago
        Your reply here comes across as reactionary and rather condescending but really doesn't address anything I said. Nowhere did I say the U.S. is worse than anywhere else nor did I imply perfection exists or even could exist. I was responding to someone talking about "the west," and I have a U.S.-centric perspective because that's where I'm from. It's quite obvious that tribalism will always be a thing (to some extent), but I strongly disagree that tribalism → modern identity politics.
        bilbo0s 5y ago
        What is modern identity politics but a big word that academics and élites dreamed up for tribalism? You may believe they are different because your ideology needs for you to believe they are different. But at heart, there is no difference. Using terms like "modern identity politics" just allows you to discuss the topic in academia and polite society. On the streets, when the tiki torches, rifles, and baseball bats come out, it really is just tribalism. Different tribes going at each other precisely because they are each the "other".
- mantas 5y ago
  Looking at US - it’s already being replaced by political divide. I prefer Euro style ethnic tribalism to US style political tribalism much more. Former allows to keep it at sports, lame memes and kitchen. Yet find common ground on internal politics. Even if political narratives divide, there’s still something to unite people. Meanwhile political tribalism seem to be penetrating everything with little chance for something in common.
  - hoesephgerrible 5y ago
    The appearance of ostensible diversity, whilst an underlying consensus is actually present. Propaganda exists for a reason I suppose.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    To take it a step further, what if the Euro style ethnic tribalism could be also decentralized, detached from any one place, to end its effect on geopolitics altogether? Unfortunately I think that'd lead directly to US style political tribalism. We may be forced to pick and choose from having localized tribes vs. politicized tribes. Maybe if we eliminate states and administrative regions in favour of municipalities only (almost flat hierarchy with just two levels of government: municipality level and EU level), the localized "ethnic" tribes would be a lot weaker.
    - mantas 5y ago
      Like... parallel societies? Separate school, health, monetary systems? That looks like a brewing conflict once there's a conflict in meatspace that can't be solved in such style. We don't need to eliminate states. We need to bring down remaining empires masquerading as nation states. Russia shall be divided by separating it's ethnic autonomies, Kaliningrad taken away, Crimea given back to Ukraine. Catalonia and Scotland shall be finally granted independence. Bavarian voices are rather silent nowadays, but why not.
  - refurb 5y ago
    I kinda get your point but which system produced fewer wars in the last 250 years?
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  Yes, I thought tribalism was the better word. > As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word ‘nationalism’…
- goodpoint 5y ago
  Not at all. Like most social constructs, tribalism can be learned and unlearned. Amplified or quenched. Applied in harmless ways like having a favorite musician or sportsball team or in very harmful ways like racism/nationalism/ethnocentrism/sexism.
mantas 5y ago
We need more Ukrainian style nationalism and less Russian style chauvinism.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  You raise a good point. In times of emergency, desperation: nationalism can be beneficial. For the most part however it seems to be destructive.
  - lazyninja987 5y ago
  - mantas 5y ago
    Societies shall be designed to withstand the worst. Not just naively hoping for the best. It's not destructive. At worst, it's less fun for hyper individualistic type of people.
- piscesmustard 5y ago
  It is quite sad the propaganda machine has convinced many that Ukraine hasn't done anything wrong at all. I am still catching up with a lot of the recent history in the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion I am certainly not saying that Russia didn't take advantage of the situation here. But as always the situation is much more complicated than what is typically presented.
jdrc 5y ago
nationalism is surely on the decline, but we can't replace it with nothing.
- joseph8th 5y ago
  Clearly you should have read Orwell's essay. He makes clear the distinction between patriotism and nationalism in the first couple paragraphs.
  - jdrc 5y ago
    i dont think one replaces the other. and patriotism has eroded very much too, and maybe that's a good thing
hereforphone 5y ago
There is no narrative. Humans prefer to function alongside those who hold similar values to their own. This increases efficiency (when the values are productive) and naturally results in a feedback loop that ideally will improve that value set. I know many of us have to go to HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity, but there's a lot to be said (in nature and history) from shared values and culture.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  > HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity That's kind of ironic because true diversity of thought is not tolerated.
  - dudul 5y ago
    Diversity of though is no longer the party line. Now it's diversity of experience. Just like equity has replaced equality, and same outcome has replaced same chances. Grifters can only make money, sell their books/trainings if they keep moving the goal posts.
  - bilbo0s 5y ago
    Shared values and culture necessitate limited tolerance for diversity of thought. That's just reality. You can't share values if you tolerate people thinking other values are better. Culturally also. In the US, back when everyone ate chicken, spoke English, and went to some form of Christian church on Sundays, there was very little cultural diversity tolerated. Chicken, English, and Church was the culture.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      > You can't share values if you tolerate people thinking other values are better. It seems like a toxic, dystopian, totalitarian nightmare to live in a society like that. I want dissent. I want good debate. I want people to be able to call bullshit when it is. I want to bring down people that have posted up themselves to these unproductive positions, dogmatizing their ideology by force and by shame, not by good intent, listening to each other, and seeking truth and fairness. Culture is "pull", not "push". You want to pull people with empathy, not supress them. No one is forcing people to wear British invented shirts and pants. They are because people choose to over their native dress. It is utilitarian, comfortable and superior.
Nasrudith 5y ago
I am no fan of nationalism but I have to acknowledge it has some function as a transitional state. It works as a mean to get disparate groups to unify without conquest and complete cultural destruction or genocide of the joining group of the infamous "kill the men, rape the women, enslave the children" style. Nationalism has its own infamous issues of course and is more of a lesser evil than a good. Bypassing it would be nice but I don't know of any successful cases doing so.

sjaak 5y ago

Something else will replace it. Tribalism is built in to our ‘firmware’.

CodeGlitch 5y ago
Unfortunately in the West I think this might be identity politics. There is very much a "us Vs them" attitude with the whole thing. To give an example I see a lot of LGBT "allies" with pin badges, flags, etc. To label oneself as being part of that group. Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  > Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider. Not my sense at all.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I feel weird if I select the yellow emoji color since everyone on our internal slack is gung ho about their skin color. Same with pronouns, almost indirectly mandated at this point.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- saila 5y ago
  Modern identity politics in the U.S. seems like the inevitable result of telling people they are "free" but then excluding certain identified groups from social life, jobs, etc. Over time, people will bond around their exclusion to create a more powerful bloc to assert their rights. It seems to me that the dominant identitarians of the past have largely created the current situation by not following the creed of "live and let live." Conservatives and the right engage in extreme identity politics, but "identity politics" is most often used as a pejorative against liberals and the left. I wonder why that is. Modern identities probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for historical identification/classification and discrimination.
  - bilbo0s 5y ago
    Identity politics would always exist. We just called it "tribalism" in our distant past. It can never go away. It isn't specific to the US either, it's a part of us as humans. That's the real reason there are no "free" countries. I guarantee, you look closely enough, you'll find the group in that country that is not "free". People just knock the US all the time because the group in our nation that is not "free" is pretty obvious to everyone in the world. But all the other nations are just as bad. I've been to a lot of them, so I can promise you that. There is not shining example of non-tribalist freedom out there, and only the ready and frequent application of force would ever create such a nation. Even then, it would be against the will of many of that nation's citizens.
    - saila 5y ago
      Your reply here comes across as reactionary and rather condescending but really doesn't address anything I said. Nowhere did I say the U.S. is worse than anywhere else nor did I imply perfection exists or even could exist. I was responding to someone talking about "the west," and I have a U.S.-centric perspective because that's where I'm from. It's quite obvious that tribalism will always be a thing (to some extent), but I strongly disagree that tribalism → modern identity politics.
      - bilbo0s 5y ago
        What is modern identity politics but a big word that academics and élites dreamed up for tribalism? You may believe they are different because your ideology needs for you to believe they are different. But at heart, there is no difference. Using terms like "modern identity politics" just allows you to discuss the topic in academia and polite society. On the streets, when the tiki torches, rifles, and baseball bats come out, it really is just tribalism. Different tribes going at each other precisely because they are each the "other".
mantas 5y ago
Looking at US - it’s already being replaced by political divide. I prefer Euro style ethnic tribalism to US style political tribalism much more. Former allows to keep it at sports, lame memes and kitchen. Yet find common ground on internal politics. Even if political narratives divide, there’s still something to unite people. Meanwhile political tribalism seem to be penetrating everything with little chance for something in common.
- hoesephgerrible 5y ago
  The appearance of ostensible diversity, whilst an underlying consensus is actually present. Propaganda exists for a reason I suppose.
- medstrom 5y ago
  To take it a step further, what if the Euro style ethnic tribalism could be also decentralized, detached from any one place, to end its effect on geopolitics altogether? Unfortunately I think that'd lead directly to US style political tribalism. We may be forced to pick and choose from having localized tribes vs. politicized tribes. Maybe if we eliminate states and administrative regions in favour of municipalities only (almost flat hierarchy with just two levels of government: municipality level and EU level), the localized "ethnic" tribes would be a lot weaker.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Like... parallel societies? Separate school, health, monetary systems? That looks like a brewing conflict once there's a conflict in meatspace that can't be solved in such style. We don't need to eliminate states. We need to bring down remaining empires masquerading as nation states. Russia shall be divided by separating it's ethnic autonomies, Kaliningrad taken away, Crimea given back to Ukraine. Catalonia and Scotland shall be finally granted independence. Bavarian voices are rather silent nowadays, but why not.
- refurb 5y ago
  I kinda get your point but which system produced fewer wars in the last 250 years?
JKCalhoun 5y ago
Yes, I thought tribalism was the better word. > As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word ‘nationalism’…
goodpoint 5y ago
Not at all. Like most social constructs, tribalism can be learned and unlearned. Amplified or quenched. Applied in harmless ways like having a favorite musician or sportsball team or in very harmful ways like racism/nationalism/ethnocentrism/sexism.

mantas 5y ago

We need more Ukrainian style nationalism and less Russian style chauvinism.

CodeGlitch 5y ago
You raise a good point. In times of emergency, desperation: nationalism can be beneficial. For the most part however it seems to be destructive.
- lazyninja987 5y ago
- mantas 5y ago
  Societies shall be designed to withstand the worst. Not just naively hoping for the best. It's not destructive. At worst, it's less fun for hyper individualistic type of people.
piscesmustard 5y ago
It is quite sad the propaganda machine has convinced many that Ukraine hasn't done anything wrong at all. I am still catching up with a lot of the recent history in the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion I am certainly not saying that Russia didn't take advantage of the situation here. But as always the situation is much more complicated than what is typically presented.

jdrc 5y ago

nationalism is surely on the decline, but we can't replace it with nothing.

joseph8th 5y ago
Clearly you should have read Orwell's essay. He makes clear the distinction between patriotism and nationalism in the first couple paragraphs.
- jdrc 5y ago
  i dont think one replaces the other. and patriotism has eroded very much too, and maybe that's a good thing

hereforphone 5y ago

There is no narrative. Humans prefer to function alongside those who hold similar values to their own. This increases efficiency (when the values are productive) and naturally results in a feedback loop that ideally will improve that value set. I know many of us have to go to HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity, but there's a lot to be said (in nature and history) from shared values and culture.

systemvoltage 5y ago
> HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity That's kind of ironic because true diversity of thought is not tolerated.
- dudul 5y ago
  Diversity of though is no longer the party line. Now it's diversity of experience. Just like equity has replaced equality, and same outcome has replaced same chances. Grifters can only make money, sell their books/trainings if they keep moving the goal posts.
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  Shared values and culture necessitate limited tolerance for diversity of thought. That's just reality. You can't share values if you tolerate people thinking other values are better. Culturally also. In the US, back when everyone ate chicken, spoke English, and went to some form of Christian church on Sundays, there was very little cultural diversity tolerated. Chicken, English, and Church was the culture.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    > You can't share values if you tolerate people thinking other values are better. It seems like a toxic, dystopian, totalitarian nightmare to live in a society like that. I want dissent. I want good debate. I want people to be able to call bullshit when it is. I want to bring down people that have posted up themselves to these unproductive positions, dogmatizing their ideology by force and by shame, not by good intent, listening to each other, and seeking truth and fairness. Culture is "pull", not "push". You want to pull people with empathy, not supress them. No one is forcing people to wear British invented shirts and pants. They are because people choose to over their native dress. It is utilitarian, comfortable and superior.

Nasrudith 5y ago

I am no fan of nationalism but I have to acknowledge it has some function as a transitional state. It works as a mean to get disparate groups to unify without conquest and complete cultural destruction or genocide of the joining group of the infamous "kill the men, rape the women, enslave the children" style. Nationalism has its own infamous issues of course and is more of a lesser evil than a good. Bypassing it would be nice but I don't know of any successful cases doing so.