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It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism

It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism is the root of all evil" while enjoying the lifestyle/security provided by the altruistic patriotism of many others.

mantas 5y ago
Even more frustrating is confusing nationalism with chauvinism, nacism and fascism. Nationalism as nations’ right to self determination and self rule is great. And that’s what brought down the old empires. While now empires are rebuilt under anti-nationalist slogans and we are sliding back to multinational behemoths. Good case why healthy dose of patriotism-nationalism is necessary is Ukraine war.
- int_19h 5y ago
  There's nothing particularly great about nationalism, because "nation" itself is an abstract concept that's inherently malleable. And thus we get those nebulous "national interests" or "national security", which seemingly justifies everything if you can get people hysterical enough about it.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Any tribalism gradation is abstract. If we agree that humans naturally go for some sort of tribalism, then we can discuss which sort of tribalism is most efficient. Tribe-as-extended-family tribalism is brutal. Pan-* tribalism (as USA) seems to start splitting into smaller tribes because it's hard to find common ground for people living in wide variety of historically caused socio-economic conditions (e.g. rust belt vs socal). Nation seems to be bring a good common narrative (historical experiences, usually language) and usually spans small enough territory to not have too much ongoing situation variation. Even the usual urban/countryside variation is usually not too much in close-by cities and their surrounding countryside because of population exchange both ways. As for „national interests“ and „national security“, you get the same with tribalism.
    - int_19h 5y ago
      It's not a linear scale of smaller/larger tribe. You can preserve smaller tribes within larger, and those within larger still. What nation and nationalism brought to Europe is a series of wars that were as destructive as religious ones, at the time when religious fervor finally died down. And it is still doing more of that.
      - mantas 5y ago
        Which wars were brought to Europe by nationalism? WW1 was brought by multinational empires. WW2 was brought by SSRS and Nazi (National-socialists). Yugoslavia was an attempt to build multi-national pan-slavic empire as well. Historically imperialistic multi-national tribes try to build some sort of pseudo-national identity and erase small tribes. Be it SSRS with the new soviet man, Spain trying to incorporate Basques and Catalonians, UK and Scotland and so on. If you look at 19th century and beginning of 20th century, nations/nationalism brought down the big empires. Austro-Hungary, British and Ottoman empires... Russian empire is still trying to survive but it will follow that way soon.
        int_19h 5y ago
        It's harder to name wars that weren't - and empires used nationalism to whip up war propaganda just as much as everybody else. I find it particularly weird that you list WW2 as not brought by nationalism, given that Nazism is basically an extreme form of ethnic nationalism.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Technically, 'nation' can have implications of ethnicity, coming from same etymological root as 'born', though that's kind of losing it's meaning these days if it ever was valid. People are generally a bit more mongrel than they portray themselves. Worth bearing in mind when discussion abstract concepts like 'nationalism' and 'nationality' though.
- macintux 5y ago
  > Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. Orwell seems to describe what you’re defending as patriotism, not nationalism.
  - mantas 5y ago
    With all due respect to Orwell, I define nationalism as nation's self-governance. Yes, it's sort of desire to take power from bigger multinational structures back to the nation. But at the same time it's defensive from nation's perspective.
    - joseph8th 5y ago
      Oh well, if YOU define it THAT way...
    - macintux 5y ago
      If you define nationalism as something other than the commonly accepted definition, then complaining about how people use it seems like an exercise in frustration.
      - mantas 5y ago
        This is the historical definition. And still one of two definitions common definitions. The other one trying to conflate nazism and nationalism. Which is just Orwellian doublespeak.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
Using the article's definitions of patriotism and nationalism, I struggle to see who these supposed altruistic patriots are. Certainly not in the military, which is almost solely focused on obtaining more power and prestige for itself and the nation. While there may be some "patriots" in government or policing, it's hard to say that's the dominant ideology. And businesses obsession with money far outweighs any patriotic feelings.
- eklavya 5y ago
  You might have the good fortune to be born in a country in a stable region or with good neighbours. When life expectancy is not great in the initial active duty years (no foreign deployment, within border, defensive) I think it’s definitely not about power/prestige. It would be extremely ungrateful to state otherwise.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I still find it hard to think of a nation where the military would primarily be about patriotism. Someplace like Cyprus maybe? But it's hard to view any forced conscription as patriotic. There are some African countries where maybe there's a patriotic element, but they often seem to have either a strong other ideology or be very corrupt. I'll fully admit my knowledge may be lacking, so feel free to tell me what country you think is full of altruistic patriots.
- joseph8th 5y ago
  I'm one. Just a schmuck, but I haven't given up on the idea of America. Not like George Washington, or Abraham Lincoln, or JFK, but like George Washington Carver, or MLK Jr. The idea that the American Revolution never ended. That the Civil Rights era was just another phase in our centuries long progressively more democratic experiment in self-government
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    That isn't really sounding a ton like the patriotism being discussed, but even if you consider yourself driven by patriotism you haven't explained how your altruistic patriotism has provided the lifestyle/security for others. I didn't deny that some people were patriotic.
JKCalhoun 5y ago
Sadly, the people I see that wear their patriotism on their sleeves are more likely to also be nationalist. But this is anecdotal and I could be wrong. Like a Christian that does not proselytize, it is probably difficult to even identify the "quiet patriots" and so it is only the more militant of patriots (perhaps with a bumpersticker along the lines of U.S.A. Love It or Leave It) that get my attention.
qiskit 5y ago
I would love to see an example of true altruistic patriotism you speak of. All people are selfish and everyone works for their own self-interest. Nationalism/patriotism exists because of each individual's recognition of that self-interest. No altruism involved here.
samatman 5y ago
Patriotism is an irregular adjective in English, which takes the conjugation of the pronoun. For example, I am patriotic, while you are nationalistic, but they are jingoistic and probably fascist to boot. I hope this helps.
joseph8th 5y ago
I have always considered myself a patriot, even in my commie youth. The idea of America to me was revitalized and given honor and dignity in the Civil Rights era. Real sacrifice. Self sacrifice that leads to progress, not sacrificing others for personal profit. Something indefinite, yet you know it when you see it, like porn. A coworker originally from Russia the other day expressed dismay about Ukraine and worry for the democracy there. Her family back home doesn't know much about the war, but she does. She became a citizen last year, and but she seemed like George fucking Washington in that moment

mantas 5y ago

Even more frustrating is confusing nationalism with chauvinism, nacism and fascism. Nationalism as nations’ right to self determination and self rule is great. And that’s what brought down the old empires. While now empires are rebuilt under anti-nationalist slogans and we are sliding back to multinational behemoths. Good case why healthy dose of patriotism-nationalism is necessary is Ukraine war.

int_19h 5y ago
There's nothing particularly great about nationalism, because "nation" itself is an abstract concept that's inherently malleable. And thus we get those nebulous "national interests" or "national security", which seemingly justifies everything if you can get people hysterical enough about it.
- mantas 5y ago
  Any tribalism gradation is abstract. If we agree that humans naturally go for some sort of tribalism, then we can discuss which sort of tribalism is most efficient. Tribe-as-extended-family tribalism is brutal. Pan-* tribalism (as USA) seems to start splitting into smaller tribes because it's hard to find common ground for people living in wide variety of historically caused socio-economic conditions (e.g. rust belt vs socal). Nation seems to be bring a good common narrative (historical experiences, usually language) and usually spans small enough territory to not have too much ongoing situation variation. Even the usual urban/countryside variation is usually not too much in close-by cities and their surrounding countryside because of population exchange both ways. As for „national interests“ and „national security“, you get the same with tribalism.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    It's not a linear scale of smaller/larger tribe. You can preserve smaller tribes within larger, and those within larger still. What nation and nationalism brought to Europe is a series of wars that were as destructive as religious ones, at the time when religious fervor finally died down. And it is still doing more of that.
    - mantas 5y ago
      Which wars were brought to Europe by nationalism? WW1 was brought by multinational empires. WW2 was brought by SSRS and Nazi (National-socialists). Yugoslavia was an attempt to build multi-national pan-slavic empire as well. Historically imperialistic multi-national tribes try to build some sort of pseudo-national identity and erase small tribes. Be it SSRS with the new soviet man, Spain trying to incorporate Basques and Catalonians, UK and Scotland and so on. If you look at 19th century and beginning of 20th century, nations/nationalism brought down the big empires. Austro-Hungary, British and Ottoman empires... Russian empire is still trying to survive but it will follow that way soon.
      - int_19h 5y ago
        It's harder to name wars that weren't - and empires used nationalism to whip up war propaganda just as much as everybody else. I find it particularly weird that you list WW2 as not brought by nationalism, given that Nazism is basically an extreme form of ethnic nationalism.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Technically, 'nation' can have implications of ethnicity, coming from same etymological root as 'born', though that's kind of losing it's meaning these days if it ever was valid. People are generally a bit more mongrel than they portray themselves. Worth bearing in mind when discussion abstract concepts like 'nationalism' and 'nationality' though.
macintux 5y ago
> Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. Orwell seems to describe what you’re defending as patriotism, not nationalism.
- mantas 5y ago
  With all due respect to Orwell, I define nationalism as nation's self-governance. Yes, it's sort of desire to take power from bigger multinational structures back to the nation. But at the same time it's defensive from nation's perspective.
  - joseph8th 5y ago
    Oh well, if YOU define it THAT way...
  - macintux 5y ago
    If you define nationalism as something other than the commonly accepted definition, then complaining about how people use it seems like an exercise in frustration.
    - mantas 5y ago
      This is the historical definition. And still one of two definitions common definitions. The other one trying to conflate nazism and nationalism. Which is just Orwellian doublespeak.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

Using the article's definitions of patriotism and nationalism, I struggle to see who these supposed altruistic patriots are. Certainly not in the military, which is almost solely focused on obtaining more power and prestige for itself and the nation. While there may be some "patriots" in government or policing, it's hard to say that's the dominant ideology. And businesses obsession with money far outweighs any patriotic feelings.

eklavya 5y ago
You might have the good fortune to be born in a country in a stable region or with good neighbours. When life expectancy is not great in the initial active duty years (no foreign deployment, within border, defensive) I think it’s definitely not about power/prestige. It would be extremely ungrateful to state otherwise.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  I still find it hard to think of a nation where the military would primarily be about patriotism. Someplace like Cyprus maybe? But it's hard to view any forced conscription as patriotic. There are some African countries where maybe there's a patriotic element, but they often seem to have either a strong other ideology or be very corrupt. I'll fully admit my knowledge may be lacking, so feel free to tell me what country you think is full of altruistic patriots.
joseph8th 5y ago
I'm one. Just a schmuck, but I haven't given up on the idea of America. Not like George Washington, or Abraham Lincoln, or JFK, but like George Washington Carver, or MLK Jr. The idea that the American Revolution never ended. That the Civil Rights era was just another phase in our centuries long progressively more democratic experiment in self-government
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  That isn't really sounding a ton like the patriotism being discussed, but even if you consider yourself driven by patriotism you haven't explained how your altruistic patriotism has provided the lifestyle/security for others. I didn't deny that some people were patriotic.

JKCalhoun 5y ago

Sadly, the people I see that wear their patriotism on their sleeves are more likely to also be nationalist. But this is anecdotal and I could be wrong. Like a Christian that does not proselytize, it is probably difficult to even identify the "quiet patriots" and so it is only the more militant of patriots (perhaps with a bumpersticker along the lines of U.S.A. Love It or Leave It) that get my attention.

qiskit 5y ago

I would love to see an example of true altruistic patriotism you speak of. All people are selfish and everyone works for their own self-interest. Nationalism/patriotism exists because of each individual's recognition of that self-interest. No altruism involved here.

samatman 5y ago

Patriotism is an irregular adjective in English, which takes the conjugation of the pronoun. For example, I am patriotic, while you are nationalistic, but they are jingoistic and probably fascist to boot. I hope this helps.

joseph8th 5y ago

I have always considered myself a patriot, even in my commie youth. The idea of America to me was revitalized and given honor and dignity in the Civil Rights era. Real sacrifice. Self sacrifice that leads to progress, not sacrificing others for personal profit. Something indefinite, yet you know it when you see it, like porn. A coworker originally from Russia the other day expressed dismay about Ukraine and worry for the democracy there. Her family back home doesn't know much about the war, but she does. She became a citizen last year, and but she seemed like George fucking Washington in that moment