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This conflict is incredibly complex, check alternative sources such as Ray McGovern, John Mearsheimer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc https://www.y

This conflict is incredibly complex, check alternative sources such as Ray McGovern, John Mearsheimer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc, Col. Douglas Macgregor says its over: https://youtu.be/xsh9V8UxenI https://youtu.be/xsh9V8UxenI We should all perform deep analysis of the conflict and behave rationally - the people of Ukraine suffer immensely now. How can this conflict be brought to a halt ASAP so no more ordinary people suffer.

rich_sasha 5y ago
My DYOR is: Russia invaded for no good reason its neighbour, is murdering civilians like there’s no tomorrow, and uses poor propaganda to try and pretend it’s otherwise.
- synergyS 5y ago
  Please be honest with yourself, do you really think they invaded for no good reason and murdering civilians like there's no tomorrow. Do you really think that is the case? Why would anyone do that? Please be rational, we need to be rational now.
  - andybak 5y ago
    OK but history shows us many occasions when countries have done both these things - so it's not exactly stretching one's credulity. I think GP's ever so slightly overstated things. There is a reason (albeit one that is unjustifiable) and "slaughtering civilians" isn't currently the main activity (which is not to say the current civilian death toll isn't awful). However - Putin's actions are almost completely indefensible on both moral and long-term strategic grounds.
    - synergyS 5y ago
      Absolutely we need to resolve things differently in 21st century. World where ordinary people would not be treated like a cattle essentially by any government sounds like utopia. Maybe Mars :D
  - concerned_user 5y ago
    In 2012 new gas deposits were discovered in Ukraine. On the coast in Crimea territorial waters, in Donbass and in Carpathian mountains next to Transnistria. Tension spots popped up suspiciously near those deposits in recent years, could be a coincidence of course. Developing those deposits would make Ukraine more independent from Russia.
Cantinflas 5y ago
"This conflict is incredibly complex, so let me link here some Russian propaganda"
- synergyS 5y ago
  Omg - I just said check alternative sources and think for yourself, I am not saying believe them, but as Elon Musk said understand that propaganda is everywhere.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > propaganda is everywhere. A charitable reading of that is "Every country has propaganda in it", which is almost a truism, but I suspect that many people (possibly including you) want to spread the perspective that: "Nothing is true and everything is possible." https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/24/the-true-russia-in-book-nothing-is-true-and-everything-is-possible-a41667 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/24/the-true-russia-in...
mrtesthah 5y ago
Your last link is propaganda straight from Putin. Here’s a contextualized summary of that message: >How is Russia trying to sell its invasion? Essentially, Nazis and NATO. Ever since Russia seized Crimea and backed separatist enclaves in the Donbas region in 2014, Putin has claimed that Ukraine is led by a Western puppet government of Nazis committing "genocide" against Russian-speaking Ukrainians. When he announced his "special military operation," Putin said the goal was the "demilitarization and de-Nazification of Ukraine." https://theweek.com/news/1010919/the-russo-ukrainian-propaganda-war https://theweek.com/news/1010919/the-russo-ukrainian-propaga... It helps the oppressor to make people think that the issue is “too complex” to form an opinion on, so that they withdraw their energy and attention. This information war is part of a military strategy for global power. https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1498056686548013062 https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/149805668654801306...
- synergyS 5y ago
  Pretending that geopolitics doesn't exists is not rational in my opinion. How we came to this place now? There were warning signs this will happen and we just stirred the fire... Ordinary people should not suffer because of propaganda gains...
  - peppermint_tea 5y ago
    I can agree there was warning sign, Putin complained about NATO expansion for nearly 15 years, but please provide better content.
  - mrtesthah 5y ago
    The links I provided deliver geopolitical context. You can decide which side you want to win: democracies or dictatorship. Putin takes the cynical position that democracy is a sham and consent should be manufactured. What kind of world would you like to live in? In the world where might makes right, it’s justifiable for the head of a state to literally threaten everyone with nuclear weapons. I don’t know about you, but that’s not a precedent I’m willing to accept.
peppermint_tea 5y ago
I am all in for listening to a different point of view, but the last link you provided is terrible. in terms of logical fallacies, after 4 minutes of watching, there was The use of Bandwagon Fallacy and The Non Sequitur please provide better content, this is HN.
- synergyS 5y ago
  After watching the whole Gonzalo Lira stream from Ukraine I concluded that indeed there is some stronger propaganda vector there so I have removed it now... Just trying to build up a proper picture of what's going on. It is crazy how that is hard today.
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Some things are just bad. You can come up with all sorts of counter points and what ifs to balance the conversation on something like pedophilia, but at the end of the day it is disingenuous to give the dissenting viewpoint a voice.
  - peppermint_tea 5y ago
    thank you, I definitely agree that propaganda goes both way, and I am all in for being able to debate. I really liked this video from lemonde.fr that adds a bit of historical context : https://www.lemonde.fr/international/video/2019/12/08/que-veut-la-russie-de-poutine_6022104_3210.html https://www.lemonde.fr/international/video/2019/12/08/que-ve... (in french, but you can see the nato expansion through the years etc)
    - synergyS 5y ago
      Thanks I will check it through
mike_d 5y ago
Just in case anyone takes this seriously: Ray McGovern is paid a contributor for RT and Sputnik, both Russian state owned media outlets. Douglas Macgregor is a former Trump official that also frequents Russian state owned media like RIAN and RT. Most of John Mearsheimer's policy views are rooted in anti-semitism. Your YouTube steamer "Coach Red Pill" (Gonzalo Lira Lopez) gained most of his popularity after an appearance on Russia Channel 1 and has been repeatedly called out for not having any talking points except what is plucked from Russian domestic media.
- synergyS 5y ago
  What about John Mearsheimer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4? He warned about it years ago?
- synergyS 5y ago
  Ordinary people are now suffering immensely, and it seems like every government just doesn't care, they just stir the fire, like we are all just some expendable resource they control, they do not care... So why was neutrality for Ukraine a bad idea? Seems like a good idea in the current situation, the one based on the reality. The fact that every media is funded by someone doesn't mean you should not take it into account. As Musk said free speech till the bitter end ;)

rich_sasha 5y ago

My DYOR is: Russia invaded for no good reason its neighbour, is murdering civilians like there’s no tomorrow, and uses poor propaganda to try and pretend it’s otherwise.

synergyS 5y ago
Please be honest with yourself, do you really think they invaded for no good reason and murdering civilians like there's no tomorrow. Do you really think that is the case? Why would anyone do that? Please be rational, we need to be rational now.
- andybak 5y ago
  OK but history shows us many occasions when countries have done both these things - so it's not exactly stretching one's credulity. I think GP's ever so slightly overstated things. There is a reason (albeit one that is unjustifiable) and "slaughtering civilians" isn't currently the main activity (which is not to say the current civilian death toll isn't awful). However - Putin's actions are almost completely indefensible on both moral and long-term strategic grounds.
  - synergyS 5y ago
    Absolutely we need to resolve things differently in 21st century. World where ordinary people would not be treated like a cattle essentially by any government sounds like utopia. Maybe Mars :D
- concerned_user 5y ago
  In 2012 new gas deposits were discovered in Ukraine. On the coast in Crimea territorial waters, in Donbass and in Carpathian mountains next to Transnistria. Tension spots popped up suspiciously near those deposits in recent years, could be a coincidence of course. Developing those deposits would make Ukraine more independent from Russia.

Cantinflas 5y ago

"This conflict is incredibly complex, so let me link here some Russian propaganda"

synergyS 5y ago
Omg - I just said check alternative sources and think for yourself, I am not saying believe them, but as Elon Musk said understand that propaganda is everywhere.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > propaganda is everywhere. A charitable reading of that is "Every country has propaganda in it", which is almost a truism, but I suspect that many people (possibly including you) want to spread the perspective that: "Nothing is true and everything is possible." https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/24/the-true-russia-in-book-nothing-is-true-and-everything-is-possible-a41667 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/24/the-true-russia-in...

mrtesthah 5y ago

Your last link is propaganda straight from Putin. Here’s a contextualized summary of that message: >How is Russia trying to sell its invasion? Essentially, Nazis and NATO. Ever since Russia seized Crimea and backed separatist enclaves in the Donbas region in 2014, Putin has claimed that Ukraine is led by a Western puppet government of Nazis committing "genocide" against Russian-speaking Ukrainians. When he announced his "special military operation," Putin said the goal was the "demilitarization and de-Nazification of Ukraine." https://theweek.com/news/1010919/the-russo-ukrainian-propaganda-war https://theweek.com/news/1010919/the-russo-ukrainian-propaga... It helps the oppressor to make people think that the issue is “too complex” to form an opinion on, so that they withdraw their energy and attention. This information war is part of a military strategy for global power. https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1498056686548013062 https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/149805668654801306...

synergyS 5y ago
Pretending that geopolitics doesn't exists is not rational in my opinion. How we came to this place now? There were warning signs this will happen and we just stirred the fire... Ordinary people should not suffer because of propaganda gains...
- peppermint_tea 5y ago
  I can agree there was warning sign, Putin complained about NATO expansion for nearly 15 years, but please provide better content.
- mrtesthah 5y ago
  The links I provided deliver geopolitical context. You can decide which side you want to win: democracies or dictatorship. Putin takes the cynical position that democracy is a sham and consent should be manufactured. What kind of world would you like to live in? In the world where might makes right, it’s justifiable for the head of a state to literally threaten everyone with nuclear weapons. I don’t know about you, but that’s not a precedent I’m willing to accept.

peppermint_tea 5y ago

I am all in for listening to a different point of view, but the last link you provided is terrible. in terms of logical fallacies, after 4 minutes of watching, there was The use of Bandwagon Fallacy and The Non Sequitur please provide better content, this is HN.

synergyS 5y ago
After watching the whole Gonzalo Lira stream from Ukraine I concluded that indeed there is some stronger propaganda vector there so I have removed it now... Just trying to build up a proper picture of what's going on. It is crazy how that is hard today.
- mike_d 5y ago
  Some things are just bad. You can come up with all sorts of counter points and what ifs to balance the conversation on something like pedophilia, but at the end of the day it is disingenuous to give the dissenting viewpoint a voice.
- peppermint_tea 5y ago
  thank you, I definitely agree that propaganda goes both way, and I am all in for being able to debate. I really liked this video from lemonde.fr that adds a bit of historical context : https://www.lemonde.fr/international/video/2019/12/08/que-veut-la-russie-de-poutine_6022104_3210.html https://www.lemonde.fr/international/video/2019/12/08/que-ve... (in french, but you can see the nato expansion through the years etc)
  - synergyS 5y ago
    Thanks I will check it through

mike_d 5y ago

Just in case anyone takes this seriously: Ray McGovern is paid a contributor for RT and Sputnik, both Russian state owned media outlets. Douglas Macgregor is a former Trump official that also frequents Russian state owned media like RIAN and RT. Most of John Mearsheimer's policy views are rooted in anti-semitism. Your YouTube steamer "Coach Red Pill" (Gonzalo Lira Lopez) gained most of his popularity after an appearance on Russia Channel 1 and has been repeatedly called out for not having any talking points except what is plucked from Russian domestic media.

synergyS 5y ago
What about John Mearsheimer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4? He warned about it years ago?
synergyS 5y ago
Ordinary people are now suffering immensely, and it seems like every government just doesn't care, they just stir the fire, like we are all just some expendable resource they control, they do not care... So why was neutrality for Ukraine a bad idea? Seems like a good idea in the current situation, the one based on the reality. The fact that every media is funded by someone doesn't mean you should not take it into account. As Musk said free speech till the bitter end ;)