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Given whats going on in the World now, Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" is a pertinent read. We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and

Given whats going on in the World now, Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" is a pertinent read. We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. Summary on Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_on_Nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_on_Nationalism

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
Just got finished watching The Great Hack* on Netflix. Demonizing "the other side", exactly as you've said, causes the polarisation that prevents even the consideration of compromise, resulting in political unproductivity that in turn erodes trust and forces us simple humans back into the basic pigeon holes that remain as the only effective politics, primarily: fear. The rational centre, however, is unprofitable, and will remain un-catered-to until its profitability increases. * The 5-minute mini-rundown of the Trinidad and Tobago election strategy in 2010, at about 1hr and 1-minute into the doco, is a phenomenal eye-opener.
- grujicd 5y ago
  OMG, that Trinidad and Tobago part is so eye opening, even for middle aged cynic who thought he saw it all.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    Now ask yourself what grass roots campaigns you supported were likely created by agencies like this.
    - grujicd 5y ago
      Yup. There was an Otpor (resistance) movement in Serbia which helped overturn Milosevic at the end of 90-ties. It was later found out it was assisted by several US agencies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor Its goal was the oposite from the Trinidad and Tobago one, to motivate as many people to take a vote. At the time noone knew they got outside help, but in retrospect, such help was very needed to overthrow a dictator.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    My cynicism is running the other way. I have been burned too many times by “factual” documentaries that leave our context and information that run counter to what the documentary is selling. Especially all the Netflix garbage which is designed to just increase the number of hours of content they have. The audio seems to be from a sales pitch, so Cambridge Analytica has incentive to lie that they did something. The “Do So” movement seems to have started due to someone not allowing the incumbent, extremely unpopular prime minister onto their property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Villafana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Villafana I have not found any good evidence that Cambridge Analytica orchestrated anything. At best, I am guessing they acted as an advertising firm and used an organically growing movement against an already extremely unpopular leader. But the Netflix documentary attempts to make it seem like Cambridge Analytica started the movement and succeeded in swaying an outcome that would not have gone the way it did without Cambridge Analytica. Maybe it did, maybe it did not, but a sales rep from Cambridge Analytica trying to sell their services is certainly no proof of anything.
- harryvederci 5y ago
  Youtube (ugh[0]) link of the fragment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 [0] Youtube is designed to suck you in and force feed you advertisements. Sorry, I couldn't find the fragment somewhere else.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    Because I was too lazy to find the clip myself, I'll instead contribute by linking to the less user-hostile, but questionably legal (isn't that few words just indicative of the state of society we find ourselves in) Invidious clip: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- sifar 5y ago
  >> The rational centre, however, is unprofitable, and will remain un-catered-to until its profitability increases. To play devils advocate, this exploitation of our irrational (as in not involving reason) behaviours is a pretty rational process.
gexla 5y ago
I feel the deeper thing that's going on is that you're objectifying the other side. By turning them into an object, you strip others of their humanity. You then setup a relationship in which you can rationalize doing all sorts of bad things. Not sure that "objectifying" is the right word here though.
- donatj 5y ago
  I think dehumanizing is the more common word for what you’re expressing, but objectifying works here too.
pastacacioepepe 5y ago
Totally agree but it's too late, it already happened. It took only about 4 days of intense propaganda, for people to start asking for racial sanctions. People started demonizing Dostoevsky. Russians have lost their jobs all over the world for not publicly taking a stance against their own people. Next step is going to be the burning of russian books. Trust me, at this rate, it will come soon.
- j4yav 5y ago
  If you think it’s upsetting that people are being called cowards or complicit for not protesting, which I agree is unfair, wait until you find out what the propaganda being used to justify the war is saying about Ukrainians.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    I've seen a lot of russian propaganda and none of it takes the racial angle on Ukrainians. Russian consider Ukrainians part of their culture so it wouldn't make much sense. Any source?
    - enkid 5y ago
      Russia saying Ukrainian culture is the same as Russian culture could be considered racist. It's similar to claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture. The result is people justifying suppression of that culture because it "doesn't exist" independently.
      - car_analogy 5y ago
        Are there really semi-common claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture? Opinion: There is no 'White culture' - https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/opinions/american-culture-and-race-ford/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/opinions/american-culture-and... White culture steals because it has no soul of its own. White people are fleeing Whiteness because they do not have a way to exist apart from their history of oppression. - https://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/how_can_white_americans_be_free/ https://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/how_can_white_americans_be_...
steve76 5y ago
cheschire 5y ago
Getting carried away is an open and public action. Not getting carried away must be done privately. It's tough to know how many people around are not getting carried away because they are afraid of being lashed out at for not being extreme enough. This slowly shifts the window. It seems inevitable.
- christophilus 5y ago
  Two people close to me think that a hot war between the US and Russia is inevitable and that we may as well go ahead and get it over with. One is a Republican; the other is a Democrat. To me, that anecdote indicates the window has already shifted a whole lot. Getting into a hot war with Russia over Ukraine seems like an obviously bad idea to me. Funding and supplying the Ukrainians? Sure. War? No.
wolverine876 5y ago
> We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. While that is inarguable truth, we also must be careful not to assume all sides are equally good or credible - that is, we should both not assume that and not demonize (or objectify). The answer is to think critically, using all our skills; no algorithm will save us.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

Just got finished watching The Great Hack* on Netflix. Demonizing "the other side", exactly as you've said, causes the polarisation that prevents even the consideration of compromise, resulting in political unproductivity that in turn erodes trust and forces us simple humans back into the basic pigeon holes that remain as the only effective politics, primarily: fear. The rational centre, however, is unprofitable, and will remain un-catered-to until its profitability increases. * The 5-minute mini-rundown of the Trinidad and Tobago election strategy in 2010, at about 1hr and 1-minute into the doco, is a phenomenal eye-opener.

grujicd 5y ago
OMG, that Trinidad and Tobago part is so eye opening, even for middle aged cynic who thought he saw it all.
- dleslie 5y ago
  Now ask yourself what grass roots campaigns you supported were likely created by agencies like this.
  - grujicd 5y ago
    Yup. There was an Otpor (resistance) movement in Serbia which helped overturn Milosevic at the end of 90-ties. It was later found out it was assisted by several US agencies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor Its goal was the oposite from the Trinidad and Tobago one, to motivate as many people to take a vote. At the time noone knew they got outside help, but in retrospect, such help was very needed to overthrow a dictator.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  My cynicism is running the other way. I have been burned too many times by “factual” documentaries that leave our context and information that run counter to what the documentary is selling. Especially all the Netflix garbage which is designed to just increase the number of hours of content they have. The audio seems to be from a sales pitch, so Cambridge Analytica has incentive to lie that they did something. The “Do So” movement seems to have started due to someone not allowing the incumbent, extremely unpopular prime minister onto their property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Villafana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Villafana I have not found any good evidence that Cambridge Analytica orchestrated anything. At best, I am guessing they acted as an advertising firm and used an organically growing movement against an already extremely unpopular leader. But the Netflix documentary attempts to make it seem like Cambridge Analytica started the movement and succeeded in swaying an outcome that would not have gone the way it did without Cambridge Analytica. Maybe it did, maybe it did not, but a sales rep from Cambridge Analytica trying to sell their services is certainly no proof of anything.
harryvederci 5y ago
Youtube (ugh[0]) link of the fragment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 [0] Youtube is designed to suck you in and force feed you advertisements. Sorry, I couldn't find the fragment somewhere else.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  Because I was too lazy to find the clip myself, I'll instead contribute by linking to the less user-hostile, but questionably legal (isn't that few words just indicative of the state of society we find ourselves in) Invidious clip: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=omc-5zj70M0
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
sifar 5y ago
>> The rational centre, however, is unprofitable, and will remain un-catered-to until its profitability increases. To play devils advocate, this exploitation of our irrational (as in not involving reason) behaviours is a pretty rational process.

gexla 5y ago

I feel the deeper thing that's going on is that you're objectifying the other side. By turning them into an object, you strip others of their humanity. You then setup a relationship in which you can rationalize doing all sorts of bad things. Not sure that "objectifying" is the right word here though.

donatj 5y ago
I think dehumanizing is the more common word for what you’re expressing, but objectifying works here too.

pastacacioepepe 5y ago

Totally agree but it's too late, it already happened. It took only about 4 days of intense propaganda, for people to start asking for racial sanctions. People started demonizing Dostoevsky. Russians have lost their jobs all over the world for not publicly taking a stance against their own people. Next step is going to be the burning of russian books. Trust me, at this rate, it will come soon.

j4yav 5y ago
If you think it’s upsetting that people are being called cowards or complicit for not protesting, which I agree is unfair, wait until you find out what the propaganda being used to justify the war is saying about Ukrainians.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  I've seen a lot of russian propaganda and none of it takes the racial angle on Ukrainians. Russian consider Ukrainians part of their culture so it wouldn't make much sense. Any source?
  - enkid 5y ago
    Russia saying Ukrainian culture is the same as Russian culture could be considered racist. It's similar to claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture. The result is people justifying suppression of that culture because it "doesn't exist" independently.
    - car_analogy 5y ago
      Are there really semi-common claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture? Opinion: There is no 'White culture' - https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/opinions/american-culture-and-race-ford/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/opinions/american-culture-and... White culture steals because it has no soul of its own. White people are fleeing Whiteness because they do not have a way to exist apart from their history of oppression. - https://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/how_can_white_americans_be_free/ https://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/how_can_white_americans_be_...

steve76 5y ago

cheschire 5y ago

Getting carried away is an open and public action. Not getting carried away must be done privately. It's tough to know how many people around are not getting carried away because they are afraid of being lashed out at for not being extreme enough. This slowly shifts the window. It seems inevitable.

christophilus 5y ago
Two people close to me think that a hot war between the US and Russia is inevitable and that we may as well go ahead and get it over with. One is a Republican; the other is a Democrat. To me, that anecdote indicates the window has already shifted a whole lot. Getting into a hot war with Russia over Ukraine seems like an obviously bad idea to me. Funding and supplying the Ukrainians? Sure. War? No.

wolverine876 5y ago

> We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. While that is inarguable truth, we also must be careful not to assume all sides are equally good or credible - that is, we should both not assume that and not demonize (or objectify). The answer is to think critically, using all our skills; no algorithm will save us.