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> Well if everyone agrees to stay on their side of the line refugees wouldn't be an issue. Clearly some people want to walk over the line. Why do you think thei

> Well if everyone agrees to stay on their side of the line refugees wouldn't be an issue. Clearly some people want to walk over the line. Why do you think their wishes are less valid? I think that because they want to enter the country of other people who have the fundamental human right to self-determination, i.e., how they are governed, including the administration of their borders. > The main argument for your position boils down to "their ancestors had less military power, so they should live less desirable places". You can justify that with some logical systems, but not the one you're using (self-determination). That's not the main argument for my position. If you don't believe people should have the right to self-determination, or at least that your wishes should override if they are unable to provide a reason that you deem sufficient or "logical" then fine. That's authoritarian though, and many more people would consider it immoral than those who consider self-determination (including borders) to be immoral.

iudqnolq 5y ago
> I think that because they want to enter the country of other people who have the fundamental human right to self-determination, i.e., how they are governed, including the administration of their borders. Sure, if you believe countries have a fundamental right to do whatever they want then you can justify anything a country does. That's not what self-determination means, though. It refers to the right of people to pick their government, but doesn't give that government unlimited power. If it did, it would override every other right. > If you don't believe people should have the right to self-determination, or at least that your wishes should override if they are unable to provide a reason that you deem sufficient or "logical" then fine. That's authoritarian though I believe individual rights, including the right to mobility, override the right of a government to do whatever it wants. I'm surprised you've found a definition of authoritarian where it's individuals being authoritarian towards governments that want to tell them what they can do.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I didn't say whatever they want that's a strawman. I said self-determination which obviously includes administration of borders and immigration. > I believe individual rights, including the right to mobility, override the right of a government to do whatever it wants. I'm surprised you've found a definition of authoritarian where it's individuals being authoritarian towards governments that want to tell them what they can do. Another strawman. I'm saying you believing that other people must live under a society and system of laws that personally satisfy you, and that they are immoral if they feel differently, is authoritarian. Just curious about your ideas of individual liberty. How do you feel about lockdowns, mask mandates, and vaccine passports, by the way?

iudqnolq 5y ago

> I think that because they want to enter the country of other people who have the fundamental human right to self-determination, i.e., how they are governed, including the administration of their borders. Sure, if you believe countries have a fundamental right to do whatever they want then you can justify anything a country does. That's not what self-determination means, though. It refers to the right of people to pick their government, but doesn't give that government unlimited power. If it did, it would override every other right. > If you don't believe people should have the right to self-determination, or at least that your wishes should override if they are unable to provide a reason that you deem sufficient or "logical" then fine. That's authoritarian though I believe individual rights, including the right to mobility, override the right of a government to do whatever it wants. I'm surprised you've found a definition of authoritarian where it's individuals being authoritarian towards governments that want to tell them what they can do.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
I didn't say whatever they want that's a strawman. I said self-determination which obviously includes administration of borders and immigration. > I believe individual rights, including the right to mobility, override the right of a government to do whatever it wants. I'm surprised you've found a definition of authoritarian where it's individuals being authoritarian towards governments that want to tell them what they can do. Another strawman. I'm saying you believing that other people must live under a society and system of laws that personally satisfy you, and that they are immoral if they feel differently, is authoritarian. Just curious about your ideas of individual liberty. How do you feel about lockdowns, mask mandates, and vaccine passports, by the way?