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> I have made this comparison in other comments, I see this conflict as a repetition of the Cuban Missile Crisis. If you are convinced that nuclear weapons will

> I have made this comparison in other comments, I see this conflict as a repetition of the Cuban Missile Crisis. If you are convinced that nuclear weapons will not be used for a first strike and if you - as the USA - are committed to not perform a first strike on the USSR, then there is no risk from USSR missiles on Cuba. But the USA didn't like the idea, so either they were not convinced that the USSR would not perform a first strike despite the dire consequences or they were not committed to not perform a first strike and feared the retaliations. ... This analogy does not work. Nuclear weapons technology and military doctrine has changed since the 1960s some people thought an effective first strike was possible, that is no longer the case and has not been for over a decade(decades?) to my understanding. > And whatever consideration made the USA not like the idea of nuclear missiles close to their border, the same considerations may make Putin dislike its neighbors become NATO members. And this was just ignored. This seems, at least in my opinion, a much better and more rational explanation than some vague ideas of what Putin might be thinking. At it perfectly aligns with his actions in the past. In 2008 Ukraine and Georgia started the process of becoming NATO members in Georgia was promptly attacked. The Ukraine under Yanukovych no longer really pursued a NATO membership until 2014, then this became again more and more a priority and Russia reacted with Crimea, eastern Ukraine and now this. In reaction Sweden and Finnland consider a NATO membership and Putin immediately reacts with a warning. Maybe you think I am objecting to something I am not. I asserted your claim/statement was too strong. I objected to the claim that you know Putin's thought process about Ukraine joining NATO. In particular that it threatens Russian security. Claiming Putin's actions are consistent with your assertion is much stronger, but also leave open the possibility for other explanations, for Putin to have other motivations.

danbruc 5y ago
This analogy does not work. Nuclear weapons technology and military doctrine has changed since the 1960s some people thought an effective first strike was possible, that is no longer the case and has not been for over a decade(decades?) to my understanding. My main point here is not the nuclear thread, I am focusing on the fact that US security concerns outweighed Cuba's defense interests, they asked for the missiles after the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion. So while ideally every sovereign country should be free to decide whether or not they want to join NATO and which kind of military assets it wants to place there, I think one should not plainly dismiss Russia's security concerns about its neighbors becoming NATO members. Maybe you think I am objecting to something I am not. I asserted your claim/statement was too strong. I objected to the claim that you know Putin's thought process about Ukraine joining NATO. In particular that it threatens Russian security. Claiming Putin's actions are consistent with your assertion is much stronger, but also leave open the possibility for other explanations, for Putin to have other motivations. I am not claiming to know what Putin thinks, when I write »Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.« this is of course just a shorthand for »Considering everything I know, especially what Putin said and did, it seems to me the most plausible explanation that Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.«, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone could reasonably mean anything else with a phrase like »Putin thinks« in this context, therefore I didn't think it is necessary to use really precise language. But that also means that I am unwilling to accept a simple »But you might be wrong.«, »Politicians often lie.« or »Maybe he fears looking weak.« as a counterargument. Sure, they all might be correct and I know this, but I think assertions alone are not good enough. I have written quite a few comments on this topic today but I think there was only one good counterpoint, namely why does Putin not openly justify the war with those ignored security concerns and went instead with the protection of Russian in Ukraine? And if I am not misremembering, no one tried to make a different case for the primary reason, not for natural resources, not for Crimea and Sevastopol, not for actually protecting Russian minorities, not for the water supply to Crimea, not for an easier to defend western border, not for a delusional desire to return Russia to past power or enter the history books as a hero.
- davorak 5y ago
  > My main point here is not the nuclear thread, I am focusing on the fact that US security concerns outweighed Cuba's defense interests, they asked for the missiles after the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion. So while ideally every sovereign country should be free to decide whether or not they want to join NATO and which kind of military assets it wants to place there, I think one should not plainly dismiss Russia's security concerns about its neighbors becoming NATO members. That argument does not work since you have not come up with a new security argument after a pointed out there was not concrete security argument after you withdrew the nuclear threat: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 For the argument to work, for the analogy to work, NATO's threat to Russia needs to substantially change if Ukraine joins NATO. If there was such a security argument the next step would be to ask if Putin is going about insuring his security in a reasonable and efficient way which I have not seen a good argument for. > I am not claiming to know what Putin thinks, when I write »Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.« this is of course just a shorthand for »Considering everything I know, especially what Putin said and did, it seems to me the most plausible explanation that Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.«, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone could reasonably mean anything else with a phrase like »Putin thinks« in this context, therefore I didn't think it is necessary to use really precise language. My observation over the last ~10 years is that claiming to know the personal thoughts or moral character, feelings of political leaders has seen(edit sp) an uptick in political conversations/arguments. If I were to do a rough estimate I would say I have seen more arguments like that, or at least are indistinguishable, than not. I am just comment on what I end up interacting with rather than claiming a global trend(edit added sentence). Enough that I can not, without wasting everyones time, assume, without verifying, that people are arguing and thinking with nuance when using such language.
  - danbruc 5y ago
    That argument does not work since you have not come up with a new security argument after a pointed out there was not concrete security argument after you withdrew the nuclear threat: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 For the argument to work, for the analogy to work, NATO's threat to Russia needs to substantially change if Ukraine joins NATO. Russia does not trust NATO and especially the USA, any neighboring country joining NATO allows them place more military assets close to the Russian border and having military assets close to a target is obviously more threatening. Russia had all those assets that are in Ukraine now all the time but moving them to the Ukrainian border made a heck of a difference. I have now also looked at more resources and they mostly support what I researched before. I am somewhat worried that I accidently got trapped in a bubble as the pieces fit together almost to well, so I will have to look more for opposing opinions. M. E. Sarotte: Not One Inch - America, Russia, and the Making of Post-Cold War Stalemate (2022) [1] John Mearsheimer: Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? (2015) [2] Vladimir Pozner: How the United States Created Vladimir Putin (2018) [3] Vladimir Putin: Speech at Munich Security Conference (2007) [4] As a probably opposing opinion I found »Documents Talk - NATO-RUSSIA Relations after the Cold War« [5] but it is 600 pages and I really only read a few paragraphs from a few documents so far. It is however co-sponsored by NATO, so there is certainly the possibility of a bias in document selection. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBKGRPwfZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBKGRPwfZw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 [5] https://pism.pl/publications/Documents_Talk_NATORUSSIA_Relations_after_the_Cold_War https://pism.pl/publications/Documents_Talk_NATORUSSIA_Relat...

danbruc 5y ago

This analogy does not work. Nuclear weapons technology and military doctrine has changed since the 1960s some people thought an effective first strike was possible, that is no longer the case and has not been for over a decade(decades?) to my understanding. My main point here is not the nuclear thread, I am focusing on the fact that US security concerns outweighed Cuba's defense interests, they asked for the missiles after the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion. So while ideally every sovereign country should be free to decide whether or not they want to join NATO and which kind of military assets it wants to place there, I think one should not plainly dismiss Russia's security concerns about its neighbors becoming NATO members. Maybe you think I am objecting to something I am not. I asserted your claim/statement was too strong. I objected to the claim that you know Putin's thought process about Ukraine joining NATO. In particular that it threatens Russian security. Claiming Putin's actions are consistent with your assertion is much stronger, but also leave open the possibility for other explanations, for Putin to have other motivations. I am not claiming to know what Putin thinks, when I write »Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.« this is of course just a shorthand for »Considering everything I know, especially what Putin said and did, it seems to me the most plausible explanation that Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.«, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone could reasonably mean anything else with a phrase like »Putin thinks« in this context, therefore I didn't think it is necessary to use really precise language. But that also means that I am unwilling to accept a simple »But you might be wrong.«, »Politicians often lie.« or »Maybe he fears looking weak.« as a counterargument. Sure, they all might be correct and I know this, but I think assertions alone are not good enough. I have written quite a few comments on this topic today but I think there was only one good counterpoint, namely why does Putin not openly justify the war with those ignored security concerns and went instead with the protection of Russian in Ukraine? And if I am not misremembering, no one tried to make a different case for the primary reason, not for natural resources, not for Crimea and Sevastopol, not for actually protecting Russian minorities, not for the water supply to Crimea, not for an easier to defend western border, not for a delusional desire to return Russia to past power or enter the history books as a hero.

davorak 5y ago
> My main point here is not the nuclear thread, I am focusing on the fact that US security concerns outweighed Cuba's defense interests, they asked for the missiles after the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion. So while ideally every sovereign country should be free to decide whether or not they want to join NATO and which kind of military assets it wants to place there, I think one should not plainly dismiss Russia's security concerns about its neighbors becoming NATO members. That argument does not work since you have not come up with a new security argument after a pointed out there was not concrete security argument after you withdrew the nuclear threat: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 For the argument to work, for the analogy to work, NATO's threat to Russia needs to substantially change if Ukraine joins NATO. If there was such a security argument the next step would be to ask if Putin is going about insuring his security in a reasonable and efficient way which I have not seen a good argument for. > I am not claiming to know what Putin thinks, when I write »Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.« this is of course just a shorthand for »Considering everything I know, especially what Putin said and did, it seems to me the most plausible explanation that Putin considers Ukraine becoming a NATO member a security thread.«, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think anyone could reasonably mean anything else with a phrase like »Putin thinks« in this context, therefore I didn't think it is necessary to use really precise language. My observation over the last ~10 years is that claiming to know the personal thoughts or moral character, feelings of political leaders has seen(edit sp) an uptick in political conversations/arguments. If I were to do a rough estimate I would say I have seen more arguments like that, or at least are indistinguishable, than not. I am just comment on what I end up interacting with rather than claiming a global trend(edit added sentence). Enough that I can not, without wasting everyones time, assume, without verifying, that people are arguing and thinking with nuance when using such language.
- danbruc 5y ago
  That argument does not work since you have not come up with a new security argument after a pointed out there was not concrete security argument after you withdrew the nuclear threat: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570482 For the argument to work, for the analogy to work, NATO's threat to Russia needs to substantially change if Ukraine joins NATO. Russia does not trust NATO and especially the USA, any neighboring country joining NATO allows them place more military assets close to the Russian border and having military assets close to a target is obviously more threatening. Russia had all those assets that are in Ukraine now all the time but moving them to the Ukrainian border made a heck of a difference. I have now also looked at more resources and they mostly support what I researched before. I am somewhat worried that I accidently got trapped in a bubble as the pieces fit together almost to well, so I will have to look more for opposing opinions. M. E. Sarotte: Not One Inch - America, Russia, and the Making of Post-Cold War Stalemate (2022) [1] John Mearsheimer: Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? (2015) [2] Vladimir Pozner: How the United States Created Vladimir Putin (2018) [3] Vladimir Putin: Speech at Munich Security Conference (2007) [4] As a probably opposing opinion I found »Documents Talk - NATO-RUSSIA Relations after the Cold War« [5] but it is 600 pages and I really only read a few paragraphs from a few documents so far. It is however co-sponsored by NATO, so there is certainly the possibility of a bias in document selection. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBKGRPwfZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXBKGRPwfZw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 [5] https://pism.pl/publications/Documents_Talk_NATORUSSIA_Relations_after_the_Cold_War https://pism.pl/publications/Documents_Talk_NATORUSSIA_Relat...