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The problem for me is as much that excellent Mac apps are being replaced by shitty Electron crap as anything else. I relied on Evernote for ages but then it got

The problem for me is as much that excellent Mac apps are being replaced by shitty Electron crap as anything else. I relied on Evernote for ages but then it got rewritten as a sluggish web app and now it's just utterly unusable and I have not found anything that fits its place of being a notebook that lives in native apps on my Mac, iPhone, and iPads, and lets me collaborate on some things with my friends who use Windows and Android. I am sort of starting to maybe substitute Scrivener for it. Which is a super-amazing native app designed for writers that sets a pretty high bar for anyone who wants to "continue to improve writers’ workflows in the coming decade and innovate in that space". Most of the apps I've installed on my Mac lately are to change the way the OS behaves, to be honest. Like, Bartender is useful and makes dealing with all the little utilities that want to live in the menu bar a lot easier. I'm an artist and Illustrator is my main medium; Time Sink's tracking tells me that I've spent about 3.3 days in Illustrator so far this year, and 9.5 days in Safari, and everything else is measured in hours and kinda looks like a rounding error compared to those two apps.

dntrkv 5y ago
If you’re ok with something a little more barebones, I highly recommend Bear App. Been using it for years. It’s super minimal, while at the same time allowing you to achieve everything you need to do. One of those tools that just gets out of the way and you never fuss with it. Also great performance and you can sync it across devices seamlessly.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  Last I checked it looked nice but it failed the “collaborate with Windows/Android friends” requirement. Has that changed?
ohCh6zos 5y ago
1password was an amazing app and now it's an electron app that frequently doesn't work for me, if you want another example.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  It also runs on Linux and Windows now with only a single codebase. They're not doing this for no reason; it may well just not make economic sense to develop native Mac apps anymore.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    As they grow into corporate windows focused someone else can come and make a dedicated non-cloud Mac app. Call it 2factorpass or soemthing.
    - kalleboo 5y ago
      Apple has been busy improving the functionality of iCloud Keychain, including stuff like adding a better UI than Keychain Access, compromised password alerts, 2FA token support, etc.
      - bombcar 5y ago
        At some point I should really revisit and see how good it’s gotten.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    That's the key problem, the conflict of interest as separate native apps are much better for users but a single cross-platform app (often web/Electron based) is much better for the developer due to cost, compatibility and maintenance issues. So the endgame is probably resigning to having lousy non-native software until/unless there once more comes a time with a single dominant/monopoly platform where people just make a single native app for everyone.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      That's the problem from your point of view. For me, a lousy cross-platform app is a direct upgrade from "no app at all", so I don't anticipate that very many software engineers are going to spend their time designing a bespoke version of their app for >20% of their target audience, even if the experience on that one platform is better. If we lived in a perfect world, every app would have a Qt, GTK3, GTK4, SwiftUI, Winforms and Fluent Xaml version that makes everyone happy. Somewhere you've got to draw the line though.
poisonarena 5y ago
I was really loving Scrivener, then I switched to windows and found out I had to buy a new license to use it on windows, back to just simple text files i guess
lenkite 5y ago
Apple decided to deprecate Objective-C and AppKit. The Web is far more stable than native UX widgets, breaks less often nowadays and has a larger pool of developers so its Electron all the way for everyone.
- jasonpbecker 5y ago
  Neither of these things are actually deprecated; both remain far more stable than any web framework.
  - 0xabe 5y ago
    And deprecating is not the same thing as breaking or removing. It does signal the preparation to remove. However, Objective-C (last I checked) still works very well.
    - kmeisthax 5y ago
      Furthermore... how would one even remove Objective-C? It's the glue that holds everything together in macOS[0]; removing it would be like removing COM from Windows. Apple would need to rewrite all of their public frameworks in Swift and remove the Objective-C bridges... and, at that point, why stop at just removing Objective-C? Why not kill AppKit while we're at it and make UIKit the only way to present a window[1] to the display? At that point, nobody is going to bother rewriting their apps[2], and the Mac loses all it's developer support. [0] And, for that matter, most of their other operating systems. [1] WindowScene, technically [2] Astute fans of macOS history might remember this sounding quite familiar. When Steve Jobs bought Apple with Apple's money, he wanted to basically continue NeXT as it was (even the Windows NT port) and replace System 7 entirely with lightly-rebranded OPENSTEP 5 and a VM (dubbed the "penalty box"). This failed so dramatically the whole project was cancelled/rebranded as "OSX Server", and Apple announced Carbon to provide Classic APIs with minimal changes on OSX.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Furthermore, like COM is pretty much alive (thanks WinDev), some newer Apple frameworks like Metal are actually written in Objective-C (with C++ for the shaders), Swift API for Metal are just bindings. Regarding point 2, that was thanks to Adobe and Microsoft pressure to keep targeting Mac platforms. Sean Parent from Adobe / C++ fame was a key person in this process.
rayiner 5y ago
Desktop apps today are just such a huge regression compared to the past. I was recently looking at software for PDF reading and note taking. I tried all these Electron apps that ran like crap and made the fans spin up on my 2020 MacBook Pro with 32GB. Meanwhile they have far fewer features than a 1990s shareware app. I used Scrivener for a bit but it’s pretty crap about sync so I switched to Emacs with org and pdf-tools. It’s a total hack of elisp and C but it’s vastly more functional than any of the $10/month SaaS note taking platforms out there. Do you remember the essay “worse is better?” Web apps are a manifestation of that.
- ironmagma 5y ago
  Anyone who’s tried to learn native app development, especially on Mac or iOS, will know that it’s a massive pain in the backside. Documentation is sparse, located in exactly one place, not readable on mobile (!!! the ultimate in irony), formerly available but now deleted, or only available in live video presentation format. I blame the OS vendors as much as anyone.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    Native iOS dev is pretty easy to get started on these days, there's loads of material for both UIKit and SwiftUI. From my view it's easier than getting started on native Android dev by a good measure. Native Mac dev on the other hand is another matter. The situation has improved some since then, but it's not too different from when I picked up Objective-C + Cocoa/AppKit back in the early-mid 00s, where nearly all instructional material came in the form of print or random tidbits scattered across various developer blogs.
    - spike021 5y ago
      I'll mostly +1 this as someone who got into iOS dev and went straight to SwiftUI for the past 2 months. There are some individual doc pages that seem to be auto-generated and a bit sparse when it comes to useful context. For instance, sometimes X object cannot be instantiated on its own according to its relevant doc and you need to use Y internal API that provides it instead. However, there's no explanation as to why or what can be done instead, which doesn't help someone who's very new to the architecture and frameworks.
LeoPanthera 5y ago
To replace Evernote I'm actually really happy with Apple's own Notes app. It's native, it syncs with iCloud, you can read your notes on the web, it supports rich text, per-note encryption, checklists, and multiple folders. It's good.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  Utterly useless if you gotta collaborate with someone on a Windows machine, though. :)
kovek 5y ago
Would developers stick to dedicating time for macos if apple took a smaller chunk?
- saagarjha 5y ago
  Apple takes 0% of your Mac app sales, because virtually nobody distributes on the App Store.
cyberge99 5y ago
There is still Evernote Legacy, which is the native Evernote prior to the upgraded nightmare version. I have no idea how long they’ll keep it around, but it’s out there.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  No Evernote Legacy option for my phone and tablet, though. And that renders it pretty much useless.

dntrkv 5y ago

If you’re ok with something a little more barebones, I highly recommend Bear App. Been using it for years. It’s super minimal, while at the same time allowing you to achieve everything you need to do. One of those tools that just gets out of the way and you never fuss with it. Also great performance and you can sync it across devices seamlessly.

egypturnash 5y ago
Last I checked it looked nice but it failed the “collaborate with Windows/Android friends” requirement. Has that changed?

ohCh6zos 5y ago

1password was an amazing app and now it's an electron app that frequently doesn't work for me, if you want another example.

smoldesu 5y ago
It also runs on Linux and Windows now with only a single codebase. They're not doing this for no reason; it may well just not make economic sense to develop native Mac apps anymore.
- bombcar 5y ago
  As they grow into corporate windows focused someone else can come and make a dedicated non-cloud Mac app. Call it 2factorpass or soemthing.
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    Apple has been busy improving the functionality of iCloud Keychain, including stuff like adding a better UI than Keychain Access, compromised password alerts, 2FA token support, etc.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      At some point I should really revisit and see how good it’s gotten.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  That's the key problem, the conflict of interest as separate native apps are much better for users but a single cross-platform app (often web/Electron based) is much better for the developer due to cost, compatibility and maintenance issues. So the endgame is probably resigning to having lousy non-native software until/unless there once more comes a time with a single dominant/monopoly platform where people just make a single native app for everyone.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    That's the problem from your point of view. For me, a lousy cross-platform app is a direct upgrade from "no app at all", so I don't anticipate that very many software engineers are going to spend their time designing a bespoke version of their app for >20% of their target audience, even if the experience on that one platform is better. If we lived in a perfect world, every app would have a Qt, GTK3, GTK4, SwiftUI, Winforms and Fluent Xaml version that makes everyone happy. Somewhere you've got to draw the line though.

poisonarena 5y ago

I was really loving Scrivener, then I switched to windows and found out I had to buy a new license to use it on windows, back to just simple text files i guess

lenkite 5y ago

Apple decided to deprecate Objective-C and AppKit. The Web is far more stable than native UX widgets, breaks less often nowadays and has a larger pool of developers so its Electron all the way for everyone.

jasonpbecker 5y ago
Neither of these things are actually deprecated; both remain far more stable than any web framework.
- 0xabe 5y ago
  And deprecating is not the same thing as breaking or removing. It does signal the preparation to remove. However, Objective-C (last I checked) still works very well.
  - kmeisthax 5y ago
    Furthermore... how would one even remove Objective-C? It's the glue that holds everything together in macOS[0]; removing it would be like removing COM from Windows. Apple would need to rewrite all of their public frameworks in Swift and remove the Objective-C bridges... and, at that point, why stop at just removing Objective-C? Why not kill AppKit while we're at it and make UIKit the only way to present a window[1] to the display? At that point, nobody is going to bother rewriting their apps[2], and the Mac loses all it's developer support. [0] And, for that matter, most of their other operating systems. [1] WindowScene, technically [2] Astute fans of macOS history might remember this sounding quite familiar. When Steve Jobs bought Apple with Apple's money, he wanted to basically continue NeXT as it was (even the Windows NT port) and replace System 7 entirely with lightly-rebranded OPENSTEP 5 and a VM (dubbed the "penalty box"). This failed so dramatically the whole project was cancelled/rebranded as "OSX Server", and Apple announced Carbon to provide Classic APIs with minimal changes on OSX.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Furthermore, like COM is pretty much alive (thanks WinDev), some newer Apple frameworks like Metal are actually written in Objective-C (with C++ for the shaders), Swift API for Metal are just bindings. Regarding point 2, that was thanks to Adobe and Microsoft pressure to keep targeting Mac platforms. Sean Parent from Adobe / C++ fame was a key person in this process.

rayiner 5y ago

Desktop apps today are just such a huge regression compared to the past. I was recently looking at software for PDF reading and note taking. I tried all these Electron apps that ran like crap and made the fans spin up on my 2020 MacBook Pro with 32GB. Meanwhile they have far fewer features than a 1990s shareware app. I used Scrivener for a bit but it’s pretty crap about sync so I switched to Emacs with org and pdf-tools. It’s a total hack of elisp and C but it’s vastly more functional than any of the $10/month SaaS note taking platforms out there. Do you remember the essay “worse is better?” Web apps are a manifestation of that.

ironmagma 5y ago
Anyone who’s tried to learn native app development, especially on Mac or iOS, will know that it’s a massive pain in the backside. Documentation is sparse, located in exactly one place, not readable on mobile (!!! the ultimate in irony), formerly available but now deleted, or only available in live video presentation format. I blame the OS vendors as much as anyone.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  Native iOS dev is pretty easy to get started on these days, there's loads of material for both UIKit and SwiftUI. From my view it's easier than getting started on native Android dev by a good measure. Native Mac dev on the other hand is another matter. The situation has improved some since then, but it's not too different from when I picked up Objective-C + Cocoa/AppKit back in the early-mid 00s, where nearly all instructional material came in the form of print or random tidbits scattered across various developer blogs.
  - spike021 5y ago
    I'll mostly +1 this as someone who got into iOS dev and went straight to SwiftUI for the past 2 months. There are some individual doc pages that seem to be auto-generated and a bit sparse when it comes to useful context. For instance, sometimes X object cannot be instantiated on its own according to its relevant doc and you need to use Y internal API that provides it instead. However, there's no explanation as to why or what can be done instead, which doesn't help someone who's very new to the architecture and frameworks.

LeoPanthera 5y ago

To replace Evernote I'm actually really happy with Apple's own Notes app. It's native, it syncs with iCloud, you can read your notes on the web, it supports rich text, per-note encryption, checklists, and multiple folders. It's good.

egypturnash 5y ago
Utterly useless if you gotta collaborate with someone on a Windows machine, though. :)

kovek 5y ago

Would developers stick to dedicating time for macos if apple took a smaller chunk?

saagarjha 5y ago
Apple takes 0% of your Mac app sales, because virtually nobody distributes on the App Store.

cyberge99 5y ago

There is still Evernote Legacy, which is the native Evernote prior to the upgraded nightmare version. I have no idea how long they’ll keep it around, but it’s out there.

egypturnash 5y ago
No Evernote Legacy option for my phone and tablet, though. And that renders it pretty much useless.