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The population of Marin County is only 258k, and more like 175k when Bart planning began. Building that line would probably serve more people in SF than in Mari

The population of Marin County is only 258k, and more like 175k when Bart planning began. Building that line would probably serve more people in SF than in Marin, so it never really made sense.

thematrixturtle 5y ago
Urban rail is one of the few things where "if you build it, they will come" is actually true, so Marin's population would almost certainly be much larger today if it was connected by BART. Whether that's a good thing is, of course, a separate question.
- treis 5y ago
  Urban rail usage in my city was down 20% from 2000 pre-covid and has lost another 60% or so from Covid. That's despite a ~25% increase in population. Similar story around the US. Outside of NYC public transit usage is declining.
  - finnh 5y ago
    Seattle's Link light rail, a relatively new thing, has been extremely successful. Ridership for the first few years well exceeded expectations. I'm not sure of the COVID impact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_light_rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_light_rail
  - zamfi 5y ago
    You don’t say where you’re from, but pre-Covid, BART’s usage had gotten so high that planners were trying to figure out how to squeeze more trains into limited headways so that the downtown track platforms didn’t become unsafe from overcrowding at rush hours. Literally it was as many trains as they could fit on the tracks. So, add SF to your list — it’s not just NYC. At least, it wasn’t. BART ridership is still down 60+% from peak pre-Covid.
    - quantumwannabe 5y ago
      There were 8% fewer transit (bus and rail) trips in the Bay Area in 2018 than in 1982, despite the population increasing by over 30% and the transit systems were expanded during that time period. BART had a 17% decrease in ridership from 2015 to 2018 despite them increasing train service by 15%, which is probably what you're referring to. As of December 2021, BART ridership is only 25% of what it was pre-covid and they have reduced service to 75% of what it used to be. From the BART Wikipedia article: "After six straight years of expansion, ridership growth began to slow in late 2016, dropping by 1.7% in October 2016 from the prior year. Although the fiscal year ending June 30, 2017, showed an average weekday ridership of 423,395, the second-highest in BART's history, this was a 2.3% drop from FY 2016. Ridership continued to decline by approximately 3% per year between 2016 and 2019, mirroring a nationwide decline in mass transit ridership in the second half of the decade."
      - zamfi 5y ago
        Interesting, though I think this misses the whole story. (In particular, BART at peak hours was dangerously congested, though I won't argue with data showing that other uses declined enough that the average was below zero.) But perhaps this speaks to your broader point about car ownership and public transit use. Even SF itself has more registered vehicles than inhabitants. > There were 8% fewer transit (bus and rail) trips in the Bay Area in 2018 than in 1982 Btw, I'd be curious to read the source for this!
throwaway4711 5y ago
It's the other way around, isn't it? Having public transit would have allowed more people to move out of the city while commuting there for work. Analogous to what happened with the subway in New York, which made outlying boroughs accessible.
ninth_ant 5y ago
That’s a bit of a catch-22 because part of the reason the county is isolated and small is because there are few good commuting options to the rest of the bay where most of the work is there. If they added BART there, the potential for adding density would make more sense. Obviously other factors like terrain and NIMBY-ism play roles as well, but you don’t need to reject all rail options within reach of a major metro just because people don’t live there yet.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  > there are few good commuting options to the rest of the bay where most of the work is there Ferry service from Marin is pretty reasonable during commute times. It's a 30 min ride from Sausalito to SF. Bart from Marin to FiDi probably would be similar, just with more frequent trains.
awiesenhofer 5y ago
Calling a city with 2-300k residents basically "too small for public transit to work" is definitly the most US thing I heared in a while.
- ac29 5y ago
  Its a entire county. Wikipedia lists 11 cities and towns in the county, the largest of which has a population of 57k.

The population of Marin County is only 258k, and more like 175k when Bart planning began. Building that line would probably serve more people in SF than in Marin, so it never really made sense.

thematrixturtle 5y ago

Urban rail is one of the few things where "if you build it, they will come" is actually true, so Marin's population would almost certainly be much larger today if it was connected by BART. Whether that's a good thing is, of course, a separate question.

treis 5y ago
Urban rail usage in my city was down 20% from 2000 pre-covid and has lost another 60% or so from Covid. That's despite a ~25% increase in population. Similar story around the US. Outside of NYC public transit usage is declining.
- finnh 5y ago
  Seattle's Link light rail, a relatively new thing, has been extremely successful. Ridership for the first few years well exceeded expectations. I'm not sure of the COVID impact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_light_rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_light_rail
- zamfi 5y ago
  You don’t say where you’re from, but pre-Covid, BART’s usage had gotten so high that planners were trying to figure out how to squeeze more trains into limited headways so that the downtown track platforms didn’t become unsafe from overcrowding at rush hours. Literally it was as many trains as they could fit on the tracks. So, add SF to your list — it’s not just NYC. At least, it wasn’t. BART ridership is still down 60+% from peak pre-Covid.
  - quantumwannabe 5y ago
    There were 8% fewer transit (bus and rail) trips in the Bay Area in 2018 than in 1982, despite the population increasing by over 30% and the transit systems were expanded during that time period. BART had a 17% decrease in ridership from 2015 to 2018 despite them increasing train service by 15%, which is probably what you're referring to. As of December 2021, BART ridership is only 25% of what it was pre-covid and they have reduced service to 75% of what it used to be. From the BART Wikipedia article: "After six straight years of expansion, ridership growth began to slow in late 2016, dropping by 1.7% in October 2016 from the prior year. Although the fiscal year ending June 30, 2017, showed an average weekday ridership of 423,395, the second-highest in BART's history, this was a 2.3% drop from FY 2016. Ridership continued to decline by approximately 3% per year between 2016 and 2019, mirroring a nationwide decline in mass transit ridership in the second half of the decade."
    - zamfi 5y ago
      Interesting, though I think this misses the whole story. (In particular, BART at peak hours was dangerously congested, though I won't argue with data showing that other uses declined enough that the average was below zero.) But perhaps this speaks to your broader point about car ownership and public transit use. Even SF itself has more registered vehicles than inhabitants. > There were 8% fewer transit (bus and rail) trips in the Bay Area in 2018 than in 1982 Btw, I'd be curious to read the source for this!

throwaway4711 5y ago

It's the other way around, isn't it? Having public transit would have allowed more people to move out of the city while commuting there for work. Analogous to what happened with the subway in New York, which made outlying boroughs accessible.

ninth_ant 5y ago

That’s a bit of a catch-22 because part of the reason the county is isolated and small is because there are few good commuting options to the rest of the bay where most of the work is there. If they added BART there, the potential for adding density would make more sense. Obviously other factors like terrain and NIMBY-ism play roles as well, but you don’t need to reject all rail options within reach of a major metro just because people don’t live there yet.

dehrmann 5y ago
> there are few good commuting options to the rest of the bay where most of the work is there Ferry service from Marin is pretty reasonable during commute times. It's a 30 min ride from Sausalito to SF. Bart from Marin to FiDi probably would be similar, just with more frequent trains.

awiesenhofer 5y ago

Calling a city with 2-300k residents basically "too small for public transit to work" is definitly the most US thing I heared in a while.

ac29 5y ago
Its a entire county. Wikipedia lists 11 cities and towns in the county, the largest of which has a population of 57k.