33 ms·

I mean you do realize a Wi-Fi connected thermostat just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting

I mean you do realize a Wi-Fi connected thermostat just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your house. Assuming someone took over and had full control of your thermostat the worst they could do is turn the heat on and make you uncomfortable. All boilers/furnaces/etc have protection mechanisms built in and in no circumstance is the 'fire' controlled by the thermostat whatsoever. A thermostat simply sends a signal that 'calls' for heat or cooling. The only exception would be a mains-voltage thermostat that controls an electric wall heater but I've never seen those connected to Wi-Fi.

jdavis703 5y ago
Correct, this is totally different than having a smart gas oven or stove. I too would never have plumbing or gas appliances hooked up to the internet. But my Nest thermostat is totally safe.
- assttoasstmgr 5y ago
  Whirlpool figured this out and deserves some praise here. All their new appliances that support Wi-Fi connectivity have a physical "Remote Enable" button that you must manually push every cycle to enable remote control of the device through the app. You cannot start the oven/washer/etc remotely unless someone has manually acknowledged it at the appliance and I believe it resets after 24 hours or when the cycle is complete.
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    I bet its all software though.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Of course, and it's remotely upgradable, too. That way, the manufacturer can install spyware anytime they want, and any hacker can use it to mine bitcoins.
      - jay_kyburz 5y ago
        I'm looking forward to banner ads on the front of my oven nagging me to buy more frozen pizza.
        attilaperez 5y ago
        I'd give it maximum 3 years until this is a reality. The way this shift works in effect is that all the higher end appliances stocked by retailers are quickly swapped for IoT ones. When a consumer goes microwave shopping the only choices they are given are super budget crap or "premium" WiFi connected offerings. These transitions are very well coordinated between Big-Box retailers and manufacturers.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > But my Nest thermostat is totally safe. It is not "totally safe" for your furnace to start in an unoccupied home, particularly after it's been off for an extended period. It's not impossible for critters to have setup shop in the warm space near a pilot light, and in an unoccupied home there's nobody to even smell what would be an obvious problem before it becomes a crisis.
  - assttoasstmgr 5y ago
    This is FUD. Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot water heater. This has been standard for decades. Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in some locales for close to 40 years.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      > Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot water heater. This has been standard for decades. Who said the pilot light was out? > Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in some locales for close to 40 years. And the baby-boom produced how many homes with pilot lights? Thermostats are often upgraded on existing homes without touching anything else, and every single home I've lived in was built decades ago still having original HVAC.
    - efreak 5y ago
      My grandmother's house has a stove with at least 5 pilot lights on it (one for each burner); I'm not sure about her water heater, gas dryer, HVAC, etc. Just because pilot lights aren't commonly used in the past half century doesn't mean they don't exist.
pengaru 5y ago
Thermostats generally have an "off" setting, and it's historically not uncommon for homeowners to use this setting when the home is unoccupied as it clearly carries less risk in terms of both fire and unexpected energy costs than ones that may run the furnace. Not only is your comment pedantic, it's not even correct.
- assttoasstmgr 5y ago
  The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the risk of fire. In fact, leaving a home without heat in some climates like the northeast leaves your home susceptible to pipes freezing which carries a much higher risk of damage to your home than a well-maintained boiler or furnace spontaneously burning your house down which happens almost never. Homeowners typically use this setting because the overwhelming majority do not understand the mechanical systems in their homes. The typical configuration for a steam boiler or hydronic heating is a single pair of wires. They are either closed (heat on) or open (heat off). That's it. I worked in the HVAC industry. My comment is pedantic because it is correct.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the risk of fire. You're completely ignoring the difference between an unattended vs. attended fire. The former has a much higher risk of being destructive and spreading to the structure. The "off" setting explicitly won't trigger in response to temperature change unattended, which is a similar concern to internet-connected thermostats; unattended operation. For those living in freezing climates they obviously must weigh the relative risks. That first use of the furnace in winter was always a monitored event back when I lived with parents in the midwest, and it was often accompanied by a burning smell we'd investigate and verify was just some dust and nothing serious. Even if you refuse to acknowledge there's a difference in unattended vs. attended fire risks WRT the furnace, unexpected energy costs from continuously heating an unoccupied home can break the bank for some. Even my Harman/Kardon amplifier's manual advises unplugging it when going on vacation because of the risk of it spuriously turning on wasting electricity and being a noise problem. Its capacity to waste energy (~1kw) is nowhere near that of a gas furnace, and it clearly doesn't utilize combustion as part of its normal operation. Fortunately I no longer live anywhere burst pipes are a concern, and I'd never leave a heater setup to automatically run in my absence. It makes zero sense for my situation. I find it amusing that you're qualifying statements with "well-maintained", which amounts to a tacit recognition of the risks. Well-maintained isn't the default, ignored and neglected is, especially for systems out of sight and out of mind.
DonHopkins 5y ago
>just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your house Unless you observe Shabbat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat >Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman recounts that he was approached by young rabbis in a seminary who asked him "is electricity fire?". He replied, "no", but asked why they wanted to know, and was shocked that they weren't interested in science at all, but just wanted to interpret the Talmud. Feynman said that electricity was not a chemical process, as fire is, and pointed out that there is electricity in atoms and thus every phenomenon that occurs in the world. Feynman proposed a simple way to eliminate the spark: '"If that's what's bothering you, you can put a condenser across the switch, so the electricity will go on and off without any spark whatsoever—anywhere.' But for some reason, they didn't like that idea either". Feynman was SHOCKED I say SHOCKED they weren't interested in science at all! ;)
- assttoasstmgr 5y ago
  If only there was a technological solution to this....... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch I believe thermostats are okay, as long as you don't adjust it. Many observant Jews use timers on Shabbos.
baash05 5y ago
Didn't some company turn up the heaters at night, to increase the power costs. Also this https://www.wired.com/story/water-heaters-power-grid-hack-blackout/ https://www.wired.com/story/water-heaters-power-grid-hack-bl...

jdavis703 5y ago

Correct, this is totally different than having a smart gas oven or stove. I too would never have plumbing or gas appliances hooked up to the internet. But my Nest thermostat is totally safe.

assttoasstmgr 5y ago
Whirlpool figured this out and deserves some praise here. All their new appliances that support Wi-Fi connectivity have a physical "Remote Enable" button that you must manually push every cycle to enable remote control of the device through the app. You cannot start the oven/washer/etc remotely unless someone has manually acknowledged it at the appliance and I believe it resets after 24 hours or when the cycle is complete.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  I bet its all software though.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Of course, and it's remotely upgradable, too. That way, the manufacturer can install spyware anytime they want, and any hacker can use it to mine bitcoins.
    - jay_kyburz 5y ago
      I'm looking forward to banner ads on the front of my oven nagging me to buy more frozen pizza.
      - attilaperez 5y ago
        I'd give it maximum 3 years until this is a reality. The way this shift works in effect is that all the higher end appliances stocked by retailers are quickly swapped for IoT ones. When a consumer goes microwave shopping the only choices they are given are super budget crap or "premium" WiFi connected offerings. These transitions are very well coordinated between Big-Box retailers and manufacturers.
pengaru 5y ago
> But my Nest thermostat is totally safe. It is not "totally safe" for your furnace to start in an unoccupied home, particularly after it's been off for an extended period. It's not impossible for critters to have setup shop in the warm space near a pilot light, and in an unoccupied home there's nobody to even smell what would be an obvious problem before it becomes a crisis.
- assttoasstmgr 5y ago
  This is FUD. Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot water heater. This has been standard for decades. Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in some locales for close to 40 years.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot water heater. This has been standard for decades. Who said the pilot light was out? > Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in some locales for close to 40 years. And the baby-boom produced how many homes with pilot lights? Thermostats are often upgraded on existing homes without touching anything else, and every single home I've lived in was built decades ago still having original HVAC.
  - efreak 5y ago
    My grandmother's house has a stove with at least 5 pilot lights on it (one for each burner); I'm not sure about her water heater, gas dryer, HVAC, etc. Just because pilot lights aren't commonly used in the past half century doesn't mean they don't exist.

pengaru 5y ago

Thermostats generally have an "off" setting, and it's historically not uncommon for homeowners to use this setting when the home is unoccupied as it clearly carries less risk in terms of both fire and unexpected energy costs than ones that may run the furnace. Not only is your comment pedantic, it's not even correct.

assttoasstmgr 5y ago
The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the risk of fire. In fact, leaving a home without heat in some climates like the northeast leaves your home susceptible to pipes freezing which carries a much higher risk of damage to your home than a well-maintained boiler or furnace spontaneously burning your house down which happens almost never. Homeowners typically use this setting because the overwhelming majority do not understand the mechanical systems in their homes. The typical configuration for a steam boiler or hydronic heating is a single pair of wires. They are either closed (heat on) or open (heat off). That's it. I worked in the HVAC industry. My comment is pedantic because it is correct.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the risk of fire. You're completely ignoring the difference between an unattended vs. attended fire. The former has a much higher risk of being destructive and spreading to the structure. The "off" setting explicitly won't trigger in response to temperature change unattended, which is a similar concern to internet-connected thermostats; unattended operation. For those living in freezing climates they obviously must weigh the relative risks. That first use of the furnace in winter was always a monitored event back when I lived with parents in the midwest, and it was often accompanied by a burning smell we'd investigate and verify was just some dust and nothing serious. Even if you refuse to acknowledge there's a difference in unattended vs. attended fire risks WRT the furnace, unexpected energy costs from continuously heating an unoccupied home can break the bank for some. Even my Harman/Kardon amplifier's manual advises unplugging it when going on vacation because of the risk of it spuriously turning on wasting electricity and being a noise problem. Its capacity to waste energy (~1kw) is nowhere near that of a gas furnace, and it clearly doesn't utilize combustion as part of its normal operation. Fortunately I no longer live anywhere burst pipes are a concern, and I'd never leave a heater setup to automatically run in my absence. It makes zero sense for my situation. I find it amusing that you're qualifying statements with "well-maintained", which amounts to a tacit recognition of the risks. Well-maintained isn't the default, ignored and neglected is, especially for systems out of sight and out of mind.

DonHopkins 5y ago

>just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your house Unless you observe Shabbat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat >Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman recounts that he was approached by young rabbis in a seminary who asked him "is electricity fire?". He replied, "no", but asked why they wanted to know, and was shocked that they weren't interested in science at all, but just wanted to interpret the Talmud. Feynman said that electricity was not a chemical process, as fire is, and pointed out that there is electricity in atoms and thus every phenomenon that occurs in the world. Feynman proposed a simple way to eliminate the spark: '"If that's what's bothering you, you can put a condenser across the switch, so the electricity will go on and off without any spark whatsoever—anywhere.' But for some reason, they didn't like that idea either". Feynman was SHOCKED I say SHOCKED they weren't interested in science at all! ;)

assttoasstmgr 5y ago
If only there was a technological solution to this....... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch I believe thermostats are okay, as long as you don't adjust it. Many observant Jews use timers on Shabbos.

baash05 5y ago

Didn't some company turn up the heaters at night, to increase the power costs. Also this https://www.wired.com/story/water-heaters-power-grid-hack-blackout/ https://www.wired.com/story/water-heaters-power-grid-hack-bl...