4 ms·

> I have no idea what the solution is Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one afterwards.

by Chris2048 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago
In my experience the builder will very happily install whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one you are not having installed. Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every upgrade.
- duped 5y ago
  Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee. If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it too!
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Could do that, I guess, but it'd still end up the same way. They probably wouldn't give you a credit. And if they did, it would be a pittance. In the end, having the big box store install it, you end up spending the same as just paying the builder their price. Like I said, it's a really great strategy for the builder. I was quite impressed with how my builder played the game, even though it was infuriating. I couldn't find a way to get around it and be financially ahead.
    - duped 5y ago
      This seems like needless defeatism. Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? Even if it's slightly more, in every remodel that you're actually going to live in it makes sense to pony up an extra grand where it matters, like your appliances. "Builder grade" is only acceptable for people who don't have to live in it, and if you're hiring the builders then you need to make that clear...
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        > Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? I did not mean to imply that you should settle, or that I did. I paid for lots of upgrades. But they were expensive, a wash for me financially, and very lucrative for the builder. But short of being my own general contractor and building the house myself, I had no leverage to change that. If I were building the house, I could say "I want dishwasher B instead of dishwasher A" and the price difference would be B-A. A typical homebuilder, on the other hand, can say "we include A with the build, and if you want B, it will cost $B". So maybe the better dishwasher is $600 instead of $500, but instead of paying $100 extra for my upgraded dishwasher, I pay more like $600 extra. The only way to "win" financially is take the builder grade stuff, use it until it dies a natural death, and replace with better things as you go. Any other path to dishwasher B costs just as much as paying the price the builder demands for it. Dishwashers aren't the best example, I agree, because they're easy to remove and install for any DIYer. But we ran into it on lots of things. Toto toilets instead of build grade? Full price. Better garage door opener? Full price. Etc. Things that are not nearly as easy for a DIYer to do (or, even if they are, like toilets, they have zero resale value). The whole experience made me want to become a homebuilder :). Partly because I love houses, partly because it's such a lucrative business.
  - bradfa 5y ago
    Depending on the local rules you may not be able to get a certificate of occupancy without a functional kitchen. That would be a reason the builder must install a stove. Wouldn’t have to be THIS stove but there may need to be A stove in order for the local government to approve you to finalize the deal with the builder.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  > and give you no credit so, are you not getting an itemised bill? You agree to a number for a house and stuff inside is assumed? I wouldn't deal with a builder who wouldn't install the oven I bought.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    The way it typically works is that you agree to a price for the house, and it will come with a standard set of appliances, usually appropriate to the neighborhood. In our case, the appliances were generally pretty decent, it wasn't really "builder grade" garbage. During the build process you can elect to upgrade things if you want. That's where the gouging happens. You could theoretically pre-negotiate the whole thing in advance with exactly the appliances you want, and then try to get the price to be reasonable. But remember that you're negotiating for a house in a hot market with other buyers ready to pull the trigger too. Good luck, if you want to play games, buyers do not have the position of power in negotiations right now. Or you can just be your own general contractor. Or you could get a piece of land and hire a homebuilder to build to your specs exactly. What I'm talking about is more the typical neighborhood of homes built by one builder, where if you get in early enough in the process you can make customizations for surfaces, colors, flooring materials, windows, roofing, stuff like that. The basic architecture has already been decided (you can sometimes change the house plan to a different one, as long as it's one they already build, it fits the property footprint, and isn't a copy of another house nearby). Maybe you can adjust some walls or doors, but not much structural changes beyond that. You're paying for convenience, and 6 month build times instead of 2 years.

> I have no idea what the solution is Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one afterwards.

In my experience the builder will very happily install whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one you are not having installed. Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every upgrade.

duped 5y ago
Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee. If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it too!
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Could do that, I guess, but it'd still end up the same way. They probably wouldn't give you a credit. And if they did, it would be a pittance. In the end, having the big box store install it, you end up spending the same as just paying the builder their price. Like I said, it's a really great strategy for the builder. I was quite impressed with how my builder played the game, even though it was infuriating. I couldn't find a way to get around it and be financially ahead.
  - duped 5y ago
    This seems like needless defeatism. Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? Even if it's slightly more, in every remodel that you're actually going to live in it makes sense to pony up an extra grand where it matters, like your appliances. "Builder grade" is only acceptable for people who don't have to live in it, and if you're hiring the builders then you need to make that clear...
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      > Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? I did not mean to imply that you should settle, or that I did. I paid for lots of upgrades. But they were expensive, a wash for me financially, and very lucrative for the builder. But short of being my own general contractor and building the house myself, I had no leverage to change that. If I were building the house, I could say "I want dishwasher B instead of dishwasher A" and the price difference would be B-A. A typical homebuilder, on the other hand, can say "we include A with the build, and if you want B, it will cost $B". So maybe the better dishwasher is $600 instead of $500, but instead of paying $100 extra for my upgraded dishwasher, I pay more like $600 extra. The only way to "win" financially is take the builder grade stuff, use it until it dies a natural death, and replace with better things as you go. Any other path to dishwasher B costs just as much as paying the price the builder demands for it. Dishwashers aren't the best example, I agree, because they're easy to remove and install for any DIYer. But we ran into it on lots of things. Toto toilets instead of build grade? Full price. Better garage door opener? Full price. Etc. Things that are not nearly as easy for a DIYer to do (or, even if they are, like toilets, they have zero resale value). The whole experience made me want to become a homebuilder :). Partly because I love houses, partly because it's such a lucrative business.
- bradfa 5y ago
  Depending on the local rules you may not be able to get a certificate of occupancy without a functional kitchen. That would be a reason the builder must install a stove. Wouldn’t have to be THIS stove but there may need to be A stove in order for the local government to approve you to finalize the deal with the builder.
Chris2048 5y ago
> and give you no credit so, are you not getting an itemised bill? You agree to a number for a house and stuff inside is assumed? I wouldn't deal with a builder who wouldn't install the oven I bought.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The way it typically works is that you agree to a price for the house, and it will come with a standard set of appliances, usually appropriate to the neighborhood. In our case, the appliances were generally pretty decent, it wasn't really "builder grade" garbage. During the build process you can elect to upgrade things if you want. That's where the gouging happens. You could theoretically pre-negotiate the whole thing in advance with exactly the appliances you want, and then try to get the price to be reasonable. But remember that you're negotiating for a house in a hot market with other buyers ready to pull the trigger too. Good luck, if you want to play games, buyers do not have the position of power in negotiations right now. Or you can just be your own general contractor. Or you could get a piece of land and hire a homebuilder to build to your specs exactly. What I'm talking about is more the typical neighborhood of homes built by one builder, where if you get in early enough in the process you can make customizations for surfaces, colors, flooring materials, windows, roofing, stuff like that. The basic architecture has already been decided (you can sometimes change the house plan to a different one, as long as it's one they already build, it fits the property footprint, and isn't a copy of another house nearby). Maybe you can adjust some walls or doors, but not much structural changes beyond that. You're paying for convenience, and 6 month build times instead of 2 years.