5 ms·

Russia invaded Ukraine under Obama in 2014 and again in 2022 under Biden. Russia did not invade Ukraine while Trump was President. So Trump is an asshole, but m

by yucky 5y ago

Russia invaded Ukraine under Obama in 2014 and again in 2022 under Biden. Russia did not invade Ukraine while Trump was President. So Trump is an asshole, but maybe his approach was more effective than that of Obama and Biden, considering the reality of when Russia chose to invade Ukraine.

ModernMech 5y ago
I address your point in my other two replies. His approach vis-à-vis Putin was to fulfill his wildest fantasies by weakening the NATO alliance and continually threatening to pull out. Every day Trump was in office, NATO got weaker and Putin's profile was elevated by Trump. The timing of the attack is because NATO is only getting stronger from here on out so it's now or never really. If Putin invaded Ukraine while Trump was in office he would have forced the American political establishment to unite against him. It's far better for him now that there were 4 years of Republicans wearing "Better Russian than Democrat" shirts. Think about how far Republicans have come on this issue. They used to be the party of the red scare, now they're the party of "Putin is a savvy genius". Amazing what a propaganda victory that is for Putin.
- yucky 5y ago
  >Every day Trump was in office, NATO got weaker Your entire argument ignores the fact that Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. You're saying that NATO was stronger before Trump, and yet they (and the US in general) let Russia waltz in, and annex Ukraine and that was that? How do you account for that fact in your worldview?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    No my entire argument doesn't ignore that, I said explicitly that NATO and Obama's light touch on Putin after 2014 absolutely is a reason why we are here right now. I think that was a big test for NATO and they failed, and Putin saw that. Obama's handling of 2014 is exactly why Putin was so brazen in interfering with the 2016 election; he knew if he got caught Obama wouldn't do anything about it and he was 100% right. That was Obama's weakness. 2014 should have been a wakeup call. 2014 was Putin dipping his toe into the water to see how the world would respond to an invasion, and IMO it wasn't harsh enough. But I don't think this had given Putin enough confidence to conduct the full-on invasion that he is right now. Then 2016 happened. Before 2016 Republicans were still staunchly very anti-Russia, as had been their traditional Cold-War position. Communism and authoritarianism: bad; Capitalism and democracy: good. That was the Republican party position in 2016. Not after Trump's nomination. At that point they turned from an anti-Russia party to the "Russia isn't all that bad, let's be friends with them" party. They removed military support for Ukraine from their party agenda at Trump's behest, at a time when his campaign manager and family was secretly meeting with Russians in his home. 2016-2020 was 4 years of the American right explicitly signaling to Putin that they would rather be aligned with him than European democracies, especially and in particular Ukraine. To summarize my entire argument, it's that because of his own personal ambitions, Trump attempted to realign America with an axis of global dictators rather than our traditional democratic allies in Europe, and in doing so severely weakened NATO's standing because America as the largest economic and military power in the world is the key to that alliance.
    - yucky 5y ago
      So do you think Russia annexing Crimea in 2014 happened in a vacuum, or do you think it was a response to the Ukrainian coup which Russia claims was partially financed and fomented by the CIA in order to install a pro-NATO puppet regime on Russia's border?
      - ModernMech 5y ago
        Why don't you just make your point?
        yucky 5y ago
        I thought we were having a discussion, I asked the above question to better understand how you arrived at your view.
      - xorcist 5y ago
        Following your own logic, that coup did not happen in a vacuum either. The coup was against a pro-Russian puppet regime that did not hesitate to shoot and kill their own civilians. Any western influence agens involved probably did not have to work very hard.

by yucky 5y ago

ModernMech 5y ago

I address your point in my other two replies. His approach vis-à-vis Putin was to fulfill his wildest fantasies by weakening the NATO alliance and continually threatening to pull out. Every day Trump was in office, NATO got weaker and Putin's profile was elevated by Trump. The timing of the attack is because NATO is only getting stronger from here on out so it's now or never really. If Putin invaded Ukraine while Trump was in office he would have forced the American political establishment to unite against him. It's far better for him now that there were 4 years of Republicans wearing "Better Russian than Democrat" shirts. Think about how far Republicans have come on this issue. They used to be the party of the red scare, now they're the party of "Putin is a savvy genius". Amazing what a propaganda victory that is for Putin.

yucky 5y ago
>Every day Trump was in office, NATO got weaker Your entire argument ignores the fact that Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. You're saying that NATO was stronger before Trump, and yet they (and the US in general) let Russia waltz in, and annex Ukraine and that was that? How do you account for that fact in your worldview?
- ModernMech 5y ago
  No my entire argument doesn't ignore that, I said explicitly that NATO and Obama's light touch on Putin after 2014 absolutely is a reason why we are here right now. I think that was a big test for NATO and they failed, and Putin saw that. Obama's handling of 2014 is exactly why Putin was so brazen in interfering with the 2016 election; he knew if he got caught Obama wouldn't do anything about it and he was 100% right. That was Obama's weakness. 2014 should have been a wakeup call. 2014 was Putin dipping his toe into the water to see how the world would respond to an invasion, and IMO it wasn't harsh enough. But I don't think this had given Putin enough confidence to conduct the full-on invasion that he is right now. Then 2016 happened. Before 2016 Republicans were still staunchly very anti-Russia, as had been their traditional Cold-War position. Communism and authoritarianism: bad; Capitalism and democracy: good. That was the Republican party position in 2016. Not after Trump's nomination. At that point they turned from an anti-Russia party to the "Russia isn't all that bad, let's be friends with them" party. They removed military support for Ukraine from their party agenda at Trump's behest, at a time when his campaign manager and family was secretly meeting with Russians in his home. 2016-2020 was 4 years of the American right explicitly signaling to Putin that they would rather be aligned with him than European democracies, especially and in particular Ukraine. To summarize my entire argument, it's that because of his own personal ambitions, Trump attempted to realign America with an axis of global dictators rather than our traditional democratic allies in Europe, and in doing so severely weakened NATO's standing because America as the largest economic and military power in the world is the key to that alliance.
  - yucky 5y ago
    So do you think Russia annexing Crimea in 2014 happened in a vacuum, or do you think it was a response to the Ukrainian coup which Russia claims was partially financed and fomented by the CIA in order to install a pro-NATO puppet regime on Russia's border?
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Why don't you just make your point?
      - yucky 5y ago
        I thought we were having a discussion, I asked the above question to better understand how you arrived at your view.
    - xorcist 5y ago
      Following your own logic, that coup did not happen in a vacuum either. The coup was against a pro-Russian puppet regime that did not hesitate to shoot and kill their own civilians. Any western influence agens involved probably did not have to work very hard.