4 ms·

I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work

I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. This is what regulation is all about.

Nextgrid 5y ago
The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
readthenotes1 5y ago
Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires this if you don't want it? And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not deign to let them? At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover that.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to create an account, show ads, etc. Some people will say that there are still budget models (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy devices that happen to display TV content rather than produce devices intended to display TV content with no interest (nor capability) to spy. The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and data collection so that in the end the advertising-based business model isn't profitable and it becomes more profitable to just go back to the old model of selling good, purposeful devices at a profit.
- eesmith 5y ago
  The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space of a single oven and this was the only option our builder offered."
  - vba616 5y ago
    >this was the only option our builder offered I don't understand this. Couldn't they leave an empty space?
    - Redoubts 5y ago
      Honestly, people can be weirdly difficult about some things. I've had a few cases in business where a vendor will say "this is the only way, nothing else is possible" for an obviously silly solution, only to reveal an alternative after the third or fourth push back.
- itronitron 5y ago
  For now at least there are ovens that don't require it. But since it's remarkably hard to find a robotic vacuum that doesn't require wifi connectivity it may just be a matter of time before all ovens are asking their owners to create an account.
JadeNB 5y ago
> I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from internet connections, but rather that all devices should offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, we'll have debates about what directly requires an internet connection … but at least it'll bring the discussion into the open.

Nextgrid 5y ago

The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

readthenotes1 5y ago

Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires this if you don't want it? And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not deign to let them? At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover that.

Nextgrid 5y ago
The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to create an account, show ads, etc. Some people will say that there are still budget models (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy devices that happen to display TV content rather than produce devices intended to display TV content with no interest (nor capability) to spy. The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and data collection so that in the end the advertising-based business model isn't profitable and it becomes more profitable to just go back to the old model of selling good, purposeful devices at a profit.
eesmith 5y ago
The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space of a single oven and this was the only option our builder offered."
- vba616 5y ago
  >this was the only option our builder offered I don't understand this. Couldn't they leave an empty space?
  - Redoubts 5y ago
    Honestly, people can be weirdly difficult about some things. I've had a few cases in business where a vendor will say "this is the only way, nothing else is possible" for an obviously silly solution, only to reveal an alternative after the third or fourth push back.
itronitron 5y ago
For now at least there are ovens that don't require it. But since it's remarkably hard to find a robotic vacuum that doesn't require wifi connectivity it may just be a matter of time before all ovens are asking their owners to create an account.

JadeNB 5y ago

> I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from internet connections, but rather that all devices should offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, we'll have debates about what directly requires an internet connection … but at least it'll bring the discussion into the open.