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Germany also buys Russian gas. It's basically the last thing Russia has to lose anymore. If they escalate the conflict even more (by even more brutally bombing

Germany also buys Russian gas. It's basically the last thing Russia has to lose anymore. If they escalate the conflict even more (by even more brutally bombing civilians) I'd be surprised if energy was not part of the sanctions. In essence it is to maintain some leverage, on top of the usual practical and selfish reasons. In addition Americans are notoriously sensitive to the price of gas (in a similar vein the joke goes that Russia has had two price spikes in Vodka, first in 1917 and second in 1991, maybe we'll get third one soon). If it rises too much they might start to oppose the whole being uppity to Russians thing going on now, which would be bad.

lowkey 5y ago
If I understand correctly, you are fine with broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble - and who frankly don’t have as much say over their authoritarian governments as American or German citizens who enjoy living in liberal democracies. At the same time you excuse rich countries such as the US or Germany who actively choose to continue to buy oil from authoritarian regimes even as they invade our allies - simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient. I don’t understand your logic. Remember, the sanctions against average Russians will absolutely result in shortages of food, medicine and other essential supplies. Many everyday Russians will likely starve or die from these sanctions. This isn’t about how quickly they can replace their old iPhones.
- sharpneli 5y ago
  > simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient. Like I mentioned in the previous post, the main reason is to keep some leverage. It's the biggest financial sanction that can be thrown at them. Essentially all other sanctions were taken, but the last one was kept unused. If Putin escalates against civilians this sanction would likely be used too.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    I’ve read elsewhere that the economic costs would be significant and elected leaders in the west find it politically untenable and would be fearful of being voted out of office if gas priced explode. I would like to believe our elected leaders are not so self-serving as to put their political interests above the needs of the Ukrainian people but I’ve seen enough geo—politics in my life that I simply can’t be so naiive.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >[...] broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble [...] Remember, the sanctions against average Russians will absolutely result in shortages of food, medicine and other essential supplies. You are completely wrong here. The sanctions are against Russia to cripple their war machine, not the Russian people. And Russia, with its immense natural resources, could easily afford to care and feed its citizens regardless of the relationship with the west, if only their oligarchs hadn't dilapidated the country's wealth for their personal gain. So it's hardly the west's fault that the Russian government steals from its own people (literally) and spends whatever wealth it has left bombing innocent people in Ukraine instead of spending it caring for its people. Russia is not the victim here, and Russian people starving is not the west's fault but it's Russia's own fault and their leaders' fault. Period.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    The net effect is the same. Average Russian citizens are being treated as pawns and they will face the most brutal effects of these sanctions. Oligarchs and authoritarians in Russia have options and resources to weather the storm. Many everyday Russians live close to hand to mouth and they will suffer. I don’t accept the decision to dehumanize an entire nation’s citizens for the acts of their authoritarian elite. The Russian kings and knights and rooks and bishops will be fine. It is the pawns or plebs who will suffer the most. They are innocent in my eyes, having only committed the crime of being born within the wrong arbitrary political boundaries.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >The net effect is the same. It's not though. The west doesn't come to Russia and shove their grubby hands into the bank accounts of ordinary Russians to steal their money, resources and taxes, and starve them to death. Russia does that to their citizens and bares the sole responsibility of these actions, not the west. Like come on, Russia can choose to stop the wear at any time and the sanctions would be lifted but they're not doing that. >I don’t accept the decision to dehumanize an entire nation’s citizens for the acts of their authoritarian elite. So we should just let Russia invade whatever country it wants and kill their way through Europe because otherwise ordinary Russian citizens might suffer? What about Ukrainian citizens and their suffering? What about the poor pensioners in Eastern Europe who won't be able to afford the increased energy bills due to the war and might die because instead of buying medicine, now have to pay insane energy bills? What about the European taxpayers who will now have to pay increased costs to house and care for millions of displaced Ukrainian refugees? So Russia and Russians are not the only ones paying the price for Putin's actions, all of Europe is. By your logic, you would have let Hitler exterminate an entire continent because fighting Germany would have been tough on the innocent people of Germany for the acts of their leader (not that it wasn't, but Hitler had to be defeated and that was the price). Except that now, to defeat Putin, instead of going to war with Russia and have millions of people needlessly die on both sides, we can bankrupt Russia and cripple it from the inside, and have minimal casualties on both sides (Europeans will also suffer from the war and these sanctions but the important thing is we save Ukraine and as many Ukrainians as we can, as I doubt Putin will ever see a trial in the Hague for his war crimes).
- retromario 5y ago
  I think it's only a matter of time until the US and Germany stop buying gas from Russia. It's going to cause a lot of pain, especially for us in Germany where nearly a third of gas is imported from Russia. But that's the point, there are no more easy ways to put pressure on Putin. We are all going to feel a lot of pain before things get better. What is happening to the Russian people is tragic, but it pales in comparison to what the average Ukrainian is experiencing (shortages of food, medicine, water and basic shelter, psychological terror, maimings, deaths). We have no other means to put pressure on Putin save arming Ukraine or attacking Russia.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    Sure we do. Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. If we cut off this market it would cripple Putin’s war in Ukraine much more effectively than arming Ukrainians on the ground. Add in energy subsidies to affected customers in need of economic support to offset the inevitable increase in oil/gas prices in the short-term and we can blunt the worst of the pain on regular Europeans. Why is this proposal not even worth considering? Broad economic sanctions are most definitely not the only option to pressure Putin.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. Except, even without sanctions on oil & gas, no one is buying the oil. https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanctions-ukraine/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanction...
      - lowkey 5y ago
        Thank you for making my point about dis-information in a time of war. This is fake news by CNN. It is easy to disprove and it isn’t the only example from western media. For example 6 days ago The NY Times reported that Shell had stopped buying oil from Russia [0] but that was also fake news. Shell is now defending their decision to buy 100 metric tons of aural crude from Russia according to multiple reports in the past 24 hours. [1] Nothing changed, It was all just PR spin to manipulate public opinion. It looks like it worked. In war the first casualty is the truth. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/business/russia-oil-companies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/business/russia-oil-compa... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-buys-russian-oil-ukraine-b2029471.html?amp https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-buys-r...
- leshow 5y ago
  I'm sure the world would love to hear your solution for how to end the conflict in Ukraine with zero collateral damage anywhere. To me, it seems like there is simply no way to make the ruling class of Russia suffer without invariably harming the average Russian.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    Unfortunately I don’t have the perfect answer to immediately end this conflict with no collateral damage to anyone as you said. That doesn’t mean I advocate arbitrarily punishing innocent civilians for the actions of their rulers - especially when those rulers are proven to be authoritarians who can and will ruthlessly crush dissent from their populace. If you read my other comments on this thread you will see I shared some ideas that I believe would both be more targeted towards Russia’s elite, while also bringing more direct pain to defund Putin’s ability to wage war. Namely the west should cut off Russia’s supply of money by banning the purchase of Russian oil. I realize this action will hurt regular Ukrainians and other Innocent Europeans which is why I also advocate for direct subsidies to reduce the cost of energy for these affected populations, paid for by western governments. TL;DR: One strategy we might try to make it harder for the elites to wage war would be to stop giving them money to wage war while at the same time temporarily subsidizing energy costs for populations affected by the oil sanctions.
    - leshow 5y ago
      > Namely the west should cut off Russia’s supply of money by banning the purchase of Russian oil. I don't think that's sufficient. You mentioned the collapse of the ruble, this is an outcome that heavily effects Russians but also directly effects the ability for the war to be financed. In the end, you cannot separate the two, in order to apply enough pressure to one you must invariably harm the other.
      - lowkey 5y ago
        Estimates vary but it seems the current sanctions include a carve-out allowing Russia to sell $0.8-$1 billion USD per day in oil and gas. I can assure you that a significant portion of these funds is being used by Putin’s regime to wage this war. I also think it is silly to argue that cutting Russia off from this direct subsidy from the west would be insufficient to have chilling effect on Putin’s war - especially when we haven’t even tried. How do you know it is insufficient?

lowkey 5y ago

If I understand correctly, you are fine with broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble - and who frankly don’t have as much say over their authoritarian governments as American or German citizens who enjoy living in liberal democracies. At the same time you excuse rich countries such as the US or Germany who actively choose to continue to buy oil from authoritarian regimes even as they invade our allies - simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient. I don’t understand your logic. Remember, the sanctions against average Russians will absolutely result in shortages of food, medicine and other essential supplies. Many everyday Russians will likely starve or die from these sanctions. This isn’t about how quickly they can replace their old iPhones.

sharpneli 5y ago
> simply because buying oil elsewhere would be expensive and politically inconvenient. Like I mentioned in the previous post, the main reason is to keep some leverage. It's the biggest financial sanction that can be thrown at them. Essentially all other sanctions were taken, but the last one was kept unused. If Putin escalates against civilians this sanction would likely be used too.
- lowkey 5y ago
  I’ve read elsewhere that the economic costs would be significant and elected leaders in the west find it politically untenable and would be fearful of being voted out of office if gas priced explode. I would like to believe our elected leaders are not so self-serving as to put their political interests above the needs of the Ukrainian people but I’ve seen enough geo—politics in my life that I simply can’t be so naiive.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>[...] broad economic sanctions on everyday Russians, most of whom are already poor especially after the collapse of the Ruble [...] Remember, the sanctions against average Russians will absolutely result in shortages of food, medicine and other essential supplies. You are completely wrong here. The sanctions are against Russia to cripple their war machine, not the Russian people. And Russia, with its immense natural resources, could easily afford to care and feed its citizens regardless of the relationship with the west, if only their oligarchs hadn't dilapidated the country's wealth for their personal gain. So it's hardly the west's fault that the Russian government steals from its own people (literally) and spends whatever wealth it has left bombing innocent people in Ukraine instead of spending it caring for its people. Russia is not the victim here, and Russian people starving is not the west's fault but it's Russia's own fault and their leaders' fault. Period.
- lowkey 5y ago
  The net effect is the same. Average Russian citizens are being treated as pawns and they will face the most brutal effects of these sanctions. Oligarchs and authoritarians in Russia have options and resources to weather the storm. Many everyday Russians live close to hand to mouth and they will suffer. I don’t accept the decision to dehumanize an entire nation’s citizens for the acts of their authoritarian elite. The Russian kings and knights and rooks and bishops will be fine. It is the pawns or plebs who will suffer the most. They are innocent in my eyes, having only committed the crime of being born within the wrong arbitrary political boundaries.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >The net effect is the same. It's not though. The west doesn't come to Russia and shove their grubby hands into the bank accounts of ordinary Russians to steal their money, resources and taxes, and starve them to death. Russia does that to their citizens and bares the sole responsibility of these actions, not the west. Like come on, Russia can choose to stop the wear at any time and the sanctions would be lifted but they're not doing that. >I don’t accept the decision to dehumanize an entire nation’s citizens for the acts of their authoritarian elite. So we should just let Russia invade whatever country it wants and kill their way through Europe because otherwise ordinary Russian citizens might suffer? What about Ukrainian citizens and their suffering? What about the poor pensioners in Eastern Europe who won't be able to afford the increased energy bills due to the war and might die because instead of buying medicine, now have to pay insane energy bills? What about the European taxpayers who will now have to pay increased costs to house and care for millions of displaced Ukrainian refugees? So Russia and Russians are not the only ones paying the price for Putin's actions, all of Europe is. By your logic, you would have let Hitler exterminate an entire continent because fighting Germany would have been tough on the innocent people of Germany for the acts of their leader (not that it wasn't, but Hitler had to be defeated and that was the price). Except that now, to defeat Putin, instead of going to war with Russia and have millions of people needlessly die on both sides, we can bankrupt Russia and cripple it from the inside, and have minimal casualties on both sides (Europeans will also suffer from the war and these sanctions but the important thing is we save Ukraine and as many Ukrainians as we can, as I doubt Putin will ever see a trial in the Hague for his war crimes).
retromario 5y ago
I think it's only a matter of time until the US and Germany stop buying gas from Russia. It's going to cause a lot of pain, especially for us in Germany where nearly a third of gas is imported from Russia. But that's the point, there are no more easy ways to put pressure on Putin. We are all going to feel a lot of pain before things get better. What is happening to the Russian people is tragic, but it pales in comparison to what the average Ukrainian is experiencing (shortages of food, medicine, water and basic shelter, psychological terror, maimings, deaths). We have no other means to put pressure on Putin save arming Ukraine or attacking Russia.
- lowkey 5y ago
  Sure we do. Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. If we cut off this market it would cripple Putin’s war in Ukraine much more effectively than arming Ukrainians on the ground. Add in energy subsidies to affected customers in need of economic support to offset the inevitable increase in oil/gas prices in the short-term and we can blunt the worst of the pain on regular Europeans. Why is this proposal not even worth considering? Broad economic sanctions are most definitely not the only option to pressure Putin.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Currently we are giving Putin up to a Billion USD per day to buy his oil and gas. Except, even without sanctions on oil & gas, no one is buying the oil. https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanctions-ukraine/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanction...
    - lowkey 5y ago
      Thank you for making my point about dis-information in a time of war. This is fake news by CNN. It is easy to disprove and it isn’t the only example from western media. For example 6 days ago The NY Times reported that Shell had stopped buying oil from Russia [0] but that was also fake news. Shell is now defending their decision to buy 100 metric tons of aural crude from Russia according to multiple reports in the past 24 hours. [1] Nothing changed, It was all just PR spin to manipulate public opinion. It looks like it worked. In war the first casualty is the truth. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/business/russia-oil-companies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/28/business/russia-oil-compa... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-buys-russian-oil-ukraine-b2029471.html?amp https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-buys-r...
leshow 5y ago
I'm sure the world would love to hear your solution for how to end the conflict in Ukraine with zero collateral damage anywhere. To me, it seems like there is simply no way to make the ruling class of Russia suffer without invariably harming the average Russian.
- lowkey 5y ago
  Unfortunately I don’t have the perfect answer to immediately end this conflict with no collateral damage to anyone as you said. That doesn’t mean I advocate arbitrarily punishing innocent civilians for the actions of their rulers - especially when those rulers are proven to be authoritarians who can and will ruthlessly crush dissent from their populace. If you read my other comments on this thread you will see I shared some ideas that I believe would both be more targeted towards Russia’s elite, while also bringing more direct pain to defund Putin’s ability to wage war. Namely the west should cut off Russia’s supply of money by banning the purchase of Russian oil. I realize this action will hurt regular Ukrainians and other Innocent Europeans which is why I also advocate for direct subsidies to reduce the cost of energy for these affected populations, paid for by western governments. TL;DR: One strategy we might try to make it harder for the elites to wage war would be to stop giving them money to wage war while at the same time temporarily subsidizing energy costs for populations affected by the oil sanctions.
  - leshow 5y ago
    > Namely the west should cut off Russia’s supply of money by banning the purchase of Russian oil. I don't think that's sufficient. You mentioned the collapse of the ruble, this is an outcome that heavily effects Russians but also directly effects the ability for the war to be financed. In the end, you cannot separate the two, in order to apply enough pressure to one you must invariably harm the other.
    - lowkey 5y ago
      Estimates vary but it seems the current sanctions include a carve-out allowing Russia to sell $0.8-$1 billion USD per day in oil and gas. I can assure you that a significant portion of these funds is being used by Putin’s regime to wage this war. I also think it is silly to argue that cutting Russia off from this direct subsidy from the west would be insufficient to have chilling effect on Putin’s war - especially when we haven’t even tried. How do you know it is insufficient?