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> I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They

> I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They don't want Ukraine to "stay in their orbit," they are colonizers that are fighting against Ukraine's independence. Putin said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Nobody in NATO is eager to accept Ukraine. Ukraine said they'd stay independent. Now, Putin is saying that Ukraine is essentially Russian, and he's bringing up fake news about genocide and neonazi government. If you think that Putin will stop at Ukraine, you're sorely mistaken. It's Ukraine now, Georgia right after, and then we shall see. You do not negotiate with terrorists. We've tried. Ever since Crimea in 2014, the west has been in one large negotiation with Russia, and obviously, nothing worked. At this point, it's all-out everything except actual troops on ground, because it's obvious Putin won't stop unless he's stopped in some way.

BbzzbB 5y ago
I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the time of his choosing, seemingly now.
- throwaway_4ever 5y ago
  Yes, anyone believing Putin is scared of NATO offense (he just doesn't want NATO defense) has to reconcile the conflicting viewpoints that he's simultaneously scared of NATO attacking Russia but not worried about them just defending the invasion of a sovereign country, Ukraine...
aszantu 5y ago
Looks like merica does negotiate with Neonazis though https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine
tsol 5y ago
I disagree. There are highly respected political scientists that disagree such as John Mearsheimer of University of Chicago. Here's an article from the New Yorker; https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-... He explains exactly how nato has made moves to expand, the puts Russia in a position to respond; >"I think all the trouble in this case really started in April, 2008, at the nato Summit in Bucharest, where afterward nato issued a statement that said Ukraine and Georgia would become part of nato. The Russians made it unequivocally clear at the time that they viewed this as an existential threat, and they drew a line in the sand. Nevertheless, what has happened with the passage of time is that we have moved forward to include Ukraine in the West to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Of course, this includes more than just nato expansion. nato expansion is the heart of the strategy, but it includes E.U. expansion as well, and it includes turning Ukraine into a pro-American liberal democracy, and, from a Russian perspective, this is an existential threat" You say I don't know why Putin is acting, and then baselessly go on to claim a reason with no support. The idea that all it takes is some strong action, without taking into account the valid objections actual experts have, is ridiculous. This isn't propaganda it's valid foreign policy discussion that many others agree with.
mynameishere 5y ago
colonizers Colonizers? That's a new one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 But even if they did want to "colonize" something they had ancient roots in, they don't have the birthrate to justify it. A total non sequitur. Georgia right after Oh, no. Anything but that. and then we shall see True. As they say at Davos, "As goes Georgia, so goes Azerbaijan". And then they (at Davos) add a little ominous aside, "...and then we shall see". troops on ground You first. Putin won't stop unless he's stopped in some way That's true of everything. A falling object also won't stop unless it's stopped in some way. Maybe barring Russian Blues from cat competitions will do the trick. Or maybe starving the poor people of Egypt will wake him up.

BbzzbB 5y ago

I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the time of his choosing, seemingly now.

throwaway_4ever 5y ago
Yes, anyone believing Putin is scared of NATO offense (he just doesn't want NATO defense) has to reconcile the conflicting viewpoints that he's simultaneously scared of NATO attacking Russia but not worried about them just defending the invasion of a sovereign country, Ukraine...

aszantu 5y ago

Looks like merica does negotiate with Neonazis though https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine

tsol 5y ago

I disagree. There are highly respected political scientists that disagree such as John Mearsheimer of University of Chicago. Here's an article from the New Yorker; https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-... He explains exactly how nato has made moves to expand, the puts Russia in a position to respond; >"I think all the trouble in this case really started in April, 2008, at the nato Summit in Bucharest, where afterward nato issued a statement that said Ukraine and Georgia would become part of nato. The Russians made it unequivocally clear at the time that they viewed this as an existential threat, and they drew a line in the sand. Nevertheless, what has happened with the passage of time is that we have moved forward to include Ukraine in the West to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Of course, this includes more than just nato expansion. nato expansion is the heart of the strategy, but it includes E.U. expansion as well, and it includes turning Ukraine into a pro-American liberal democracy, and, from a Russian perspective, this is an existential threat" You say I don't know why Putin is acting, and then baselessly go on to claim a reason with no support. The idea that all it takes is some strong action, without taking into account the valid objections actual experts have, is ridiculous. This isn't propaganda it's valid foreign policy discussion that many others agree with.

mynameishere 5y ago

colonizers Colonizers? That's a new one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 But even if they did want to "colonize" something they had ancient roots in, they don't have the birthrate to justify it. A total non sequitur. Georgia right after Oh, no. Anything but that. and then we shall see True. As they say at Davos, "As goes Georgia, so goes Azerbaijan". And then they (at Davos) add a little ominous aside, "...and then we shall see". troops on ground You first. Putin won't stop unless he's stopped in some way That's true of everything. A falling object also won't stop unless it's stopped in some way. Maybe barring Russian Blues from cat competitions will do the trick. Or maybe starving the poor people of Egypt will wake him up.