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Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. This may be the limited range

Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance for warranty repair. Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote with their dollars this kind of trash will not change. I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that says internet connection required to function. Most of these things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a fine benefit for those people who want that kind of interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook. The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time.

azemetre 5y ago
I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. This is what regulation is all about.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- readthenotes1 5y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires this if you don't want it? And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not deign to let them? At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover that.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to create an account, show ads, etc. Some people will say that there are still budget models (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy devices that happen to display TV content rather than produce devices intended to display TV content with no interest (nor capability) to spy. The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and data collection so that in the end the advertising-based business model isn't profitable and it becomes more profitable to just go back to the old model of selling good, purposeful devices at a profit.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space of a single oven and this was the only option our builder offered."
    - vba616 5y ago
      >this was the only option our builder offered I don't understand this. Couldn't they leave an empty space?
      - Redoubts 5y ago
        Honestly, people can be weirdly difficult about some things. I've had a few cases in business where a vendor will say "this is the only way, nothing else is possible" for an obviously silly solution, only to reveal an alternative after the third or fourth push back.
- JadeNB 5y ago
  > I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from internet connections, but rather that all devices should offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, we'll have debates about what directly requires an internet connection … but at least it'll bring the discussion into the open.
ce4 5y ago
What happened to SSL3/TLS1.0/TLS1.1 end-of-life will also happen to Wifi protocols: WEP-only devices are already out, WPA1-only devices will be next to lose access to a properly secured wifi network. The longevity of the dumb parts in kitchen appliances exceeds that of the smart boxes in them. The manufacturer cannot slap a 20-years maintenance-budget onto the sticker price and I also don't see customers paying for a yearly maintenance subscription for 20 years (for each connected appliance). It will take a decade until people have learned that the shiny new iOT features are a burden in the long run. Maybe iOT maintenance longevity will get sorted out sometimes. Until then I refuse to buy such crap.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  From a manufacturer's perspective this seems awesome. Built-in planned obsolescence.
- mushyhammer 5y ago
  > It will take a decade until people have learned I wish I was so positive about that. Disposable electronics have been part of cars (which cost 10s of thousands of dollars) for far longer and people still buy them. We’re doomed. Doomed I say.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
criddell 5y ago
It's only a matter of time until these internet connected appliances don't need access to your wifi. They will either have a cell modem or the appliance company will pay Amazon for access to their mesh network.
- zionic 5y ago
  This. Soon I’ll have to jam 5G/whatever around my home to keep devices from “escaping”.
colinmhayes 5y ago
> Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works The oven is specifically marketed as not having some features without connecting to the internet. I'm not sure what you think complaining would accomplish, but I can assure you it will not lead to any firmware updates or refunds. And it definitely won't lead to a winning law suit.

azemetre 5y ago

I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. This is what regulation is all about.

Nextgrid 5y ago
The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
readthenotes1 5y ago
Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires this if you don't want it? And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not deign to let them? At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover that.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to create an account, show ads, etc. Some people will say that there are still budget models (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy devices that happen to display TV content rather than produce devices intended to display TV content with no interest (nor capability) to spy. The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and data collection so that in the end the advertising-based business model isn't profitable and it becomes more profitable to just go back to the old model of selling good, purposeful devices at a profit.
- eesmith 5y ago
  The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space of a single oven and this was the only option our builder offered."
  - vba616 5y ago
    >this was the only option our builder offered I don't understand this. Couldn't they leave an empty space?
    - Redoubts 5y ago
      Honestly, people can be weirdly difficult about some things. I've had a few cases in business where a vendor will say "this is the only way, nothing else is possible" for an obviously silly solution, only to reveal an alternative after the third or fourth push back.
JadeNB 5y ago
> I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from internet connections, but rather that all devices should offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, we'll have debates about what directly requires an internet connection … but at least it'll bring the discussion into the open.

ce4 5y ago

What happened to SSL3/TLS1.0/TLS1.1 end-of-life will also happen to Wifi protocols: WEP-only devices are already out, WPA1-only devices will be next to lose access to a properly secured wifi network. The longevity of the dumb parts in kitchen appliances exceeds that of the smart boxes in them. The manufacturer cannot slap a 20-years maintenance-budget onto the sticker price and I also don't see customers paying for a yearly maintenance subscription for 20 years (for each connected appliance). It will take a decade until people have learned that the shiny new iOT features are a burden in the long run. Maybe iOT maintenance longevity will get sorted out sometimes. Until then I refuse to buy such crap.

Nextgrid 5y ago
From a manufacturer's perspective this seems awesome. Built-in planned obsolescence.
mushyhammer 5y ago
> It will take a decade until people have learned I wish I was so positive about that. Disposable electronics have been part of cars (which cost 10s of thousands of dollars) for far longer and people still buy them. We’re doomed. Doomed I say.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

criddell 5y ago

It's only a matter of time until these internet connected appliances don't need access to your wifi. They will either have a cell modem or the appliance company will pay Amazon for access to their mesh network.

zionic 5y ago
This. Soon I’ll have to jam 5G/whatever around my home to keep devices from “escaping”.

colinmhayes 5y ago

> Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works The oven is specifically marketed as not having some features without connecting to the internet. I'm not sure what you think complaining would accomplish, but I can assure you it will not lead to any firmware updates or refunds. And it definitely won't lead to a winning law suit.