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Declaring war on Ukraine is also a declaration of war. Putin started this and no matter what happens, world war 3, nuclear, whatever: Putin started it. Putin es

Declaring war on Ukraine is also a declaration of war. Putin started this and no matter what happens, world war 3, nuclear, whatever: Putin started it. Putin escalated it. He was already threatening nuclear if he doesn't get what he wants. If he's serious about that, nothing the west does besides rolling over and just giving him the world will stop him from doing that and giving in to him will, in my opinion, only embolden him by showing him that his threats get him results. If he wants to end the sanctions, then he can withdraw from Ukraine and we'll go from there. Remember also that Putin lied multiple times: its just a military exercise, not invading, you're crazy (then he invaded); civilians won't be targeted or harmed (and then he started targeting and killing civilians). Nothing he promises or says can be trusted. Having said that, its all rather difficult. If he's backed into a corner and sees no other way out, what's stopping him from going "Fuck it, I'm screwed either way, launch the nukes"...

forum_ghost 5y ago
- dkersten 5y ago
  > The same article the US entered Iraq under. So? Many people equally believe that the Iraq war was unjustified. Just because someone else does something bad, doesn't give you the right or an excuse to also do something bad. > Nobody is going to launch nukes, that’s just silly. Right up until Putin invaded Ukraine, everybody was saying he won't invade Ukraine, that's just silly. But he did anyway. You don't know what Putin will or won't do, especially now that Ukraine turned out to not be so easy to take and the world has largely banded together against him. If he's backed into a corner and feels that he's doomed either way, then who knows what he is willing to do. > He will likely just void IP rights and patents in retaliation to sanctions. He can go for it.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
yellowcake0 5y ago
How about we stop with the blame game and start figuring out how to conduct foreign policy in a way that leads to desirable geopolitical outcomes for all parties involved. The humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from the US' invasion of Iraq was far worse than what's happening in Ukraine anyways, so all this moralizing by the West just comes off as hollow and hypocritical. If the US leadership over the last thirty years was even a little less unscrupulous and short-sighted, we could have averted this geopolitical catastrophe currently unfolding in Eastern Europe, but I'm sure the fact that "Putin started it" will be great comfort when the nukes start falling and everyone you knew or cared about is dead.
- todorus 5y ago
  I don't understand, do you want to stop the blame game, or would you rather have it pointed at the US, because:"the US started it"? Two wrongs don't make a right, now do they? I find it mind boggling that such an act of agression can be made immune to critique because "some other country did it worse that one time."
  - yellowcake0 5y ago
    I didn't say the US started it, my point is both countries made poor decisions which led to this outcome, not just Russia. So instead of trying to assign blame, lets try to resolve this situation to all parties' benefit, rather than lionizing one side, and demonizing the other. Which ultimately means taking Russia's security concerns and legitimate grievances seriously, because if this gets out of hand, then it will be to the whole world's sorrow.
    - dkersten 5y ago
      We can only deal with what we have in front of us right now. Right now, Russia is 1) committing war crimes in Ukraine and 2) threatening the world with nuclear war if he doesn't get what he wants. So of course we are talking about the situation at hand. When the imminent threat is over, by all means, we can criticize everyone else who is or has committed evil too, including the US and China for their crimes against civilians. But right now, the crisis at hand is that Russia has invaded Ukraine and Putin has lied again and again. How can we take Russia's grievances seriously when Putin has been acting on bad faith all along.
inter_netuser 5y ago
How is the Ukranian Donbass situation any different from Kosovo/NATO bombings of entire Serbia? Where was everyone during the last 8 years during the Donbass war where Ukraine deployed battalions composed of neo-nazis against unarmed civilians? Further unapproved thoughts from approved sources: 1. US ambassador decided who they'll pick for the puppet during the 2014 coup, right on this call: https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k 2. Ukraine is the only country with an official neo-Nazi battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion 3. Ukraine parliament speaker was an open anti-semite and neo-nazi, and also served as minister of national security(!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new- https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-... 4. Ukraine commits assaults and arson against their rather sizable ethnic minorities, again, using their neo-nazi groups: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... 5. Ukraine has neo-nazis at every level of their government: https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc 6. Ukrainians killing civilians for 8 years using the same neo-nazi battalions mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas Just as Ukraine refused humanitarian corridors during the last 8 years in Donbass, they are refusing them now to their own civilians to exit cities under siege. It's amazing how people think Ukraine is this shining beacon of freedom and Russia is this evil orc empire, when in fact, they both have the same transparency score, aka just as corrupt. Now tell me, how is recognizing independence of a province populated by a persecuted ethnic group, and then marshalling troops to protect it any different from NATO vs Kosovo? The minority is Russian, so I guess it's a safe pre-approved behaviour to hate them and ignore their persecution by literally self-admitted neo-nazis. Go ahead and support Nazis openly.
- belter 5y ago
  I will embrace the new dimension of a Nazi country with a Jewish president... \s
  - nazka 5y ago
    I agree with you. Now it seems that he is going to be downvoted to oblivion but I think he shouldn’t. Why? It’s exactly this kind of opposite and constructed opinion (right or wrong really it doesn’t matter) that help us to be better critical thinkers and get a better view of the world. If he is wrong then we will know even more why about the subject. If he is right then our views have now dramatically changed! Now of course we have to take time ourselves to go to his material, in the rabbit hole of infos, fact check, check the sources etc… Or else we are no better than the other person we disagree with! Just lucky to be on the right side. Or! Not even knowing that we are in the wrong one and never being able to know it without putting the effort! Thanks to his comment and going down to the rabbit hole of infos and fact checking etc… I now know a lot more about what’s going there, Ukraine, the geopolitical states, Russia… and also why people may think like OP. Doesn’t mean I agree. But I have now a lot better and wider understanding than before. And that’s too bad to not respect people that just help ourselves to achieve that even if we disagree with them.

forum_ghost 5y ago

dkersten 5y ago
> The same article the US entered Iraq under. So? Many people equally believe that the Iraq war was unjustified. Just because someone else does something bad, doesn't give you the right or an excuse to also do something bad. > Nobody is going to launch nukes, that’s just silly. Right up until Putin invaded Ukraine, everybody was saying he won't invade Ukraine, that's just silly. But he did anyway. You don't know what Putin will or won't do, especially now that Ukraine turned out to not be so easy to take and the world has largely banded together against him. If he's backed into a corner and feels that he's doomed either way, then who knows what he is willing to do. > He will likely just void IP rights and patents in retaliation to sanctions. He can go for it.
- forum_ghost 5y ago

yellowcake0 5y ago

How about we stop with the blame game and start figuring out how to conduct foreign policy in a way that leads to desirable geopolitical outcomes for all parties involved. The humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from the US' invasion of Iraq was far worse than what's happening in Ukraine anyways, so all this moralizing by the West just comes off as hollow and hypocritical. If the US leadership over the last thirty years was even a little less unscrupulous and short-sighted, we could have averted this geopolitical catastrophe currently unfolding in Eastern Europe, but I'm sure the fact that "Putin started it" will be great comfort when the nukes start falling and everyone you knew or cared about is dead.

todorus 5y ago
I don't understand, do you want to stop the blame game, or would you rather have it pointed at the US, because:"the US started it"? Two wrongs don't make a right, now do they? I find it mind boggling that such an act of agression can be made immune to critique because "some other country did it worse that one time."
- yellowcake0 5y ago
  I didn't say the US started it, my point is both countries made poor decisions which led to this outcome, not just Russia. So instead of trying to assign blame, lets try to resolve this situation to all parties' benefit, rather than lionizing one side, and demonizing the other. Which ultimately means taking Russia's security concerns and legitimate grievances seriously, because if this gets out of hand, then it will be to the whole world's sorrow.
  - dkersten 5y ago
    We can only deal with what we have in front of us right now. Right now, Russia is 1) committing war crimes in Ukraine and 2) threatening the world with nuclear war if he doesn't get what he wants. So of course we are talking about the situation at hand. When the imminent threat is over, by all means, we can criticize everyone else who is or has committed evil too, including the US and China for their crimes against civilians. But right now, the crisis at hand is that Russia has invaded Ukraine and Putin has lied again and again. How can we take Russia's grievances seriously when Putin has been acting on bad faith all along.

inter_netuser 5y ago

How is the Ukranian Donbass situation any different from Kosovo/NATO bombings of entire Serbia? Where was everyone during the last 8 years during the Donbass war where Ukraine deployed battalions composed of neo-nazis against unarmed civilians? Further unapproved thoughts from approved sources: 1. US ambassador decided who they'll pick for the puppet during the 2014 coup, right on this call: https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k 2. Ukraine is the only country with an official neo-Nazi battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion 3. Ukraine parliament speaker was an open anti-semite and neo-nazi, and also served as minister of national security(!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new- https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-... 4. Ukraine commits assaults and arson against their rather sizable ethnic minorities, again, using their neo-nazi groups: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... 5. Ukraine has neo-nazis at every level of their government: https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc https://youtu.be/KfaAyiP8Wuc 6. Ukrainians killing civilians for 8 years using the same neo-nazi battalions mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas Just as Ukraine refused humanitarian corridors during the last 8 years in Donbass, they are refusing them now to their own civilians to exit cities under siege. It's amazing how people think Ukraine is this shining beacon of freedom and Russia is this evil orc empire, when in fact, they both have the same transparency score, aka just as corrupt. Now tell me, how is recognizing independence of a province populated by a persecuted ethnic group, and then marshalling troops to protect it any different from NATO vs Kosovo? The minority is Russian, so I guess it's a safe pre-approved behaviour to hate them and ignore their persecution by literally self-admitted neo-nazis. Go ahead and support Nazis openly.

belter 5y ago
I will embrace the new dimension of a Nazi country with a Jewish president... \s
- nazka 5y ago
  I agree with you. Now it seems that he is going to be downvoted to oblivion but I think he shouldn’t. Why? It’s exactly this kind of opposite and constructed opinion (right or wrong really it doesn’t matter) that help us to be better critical thinkers and get a better view of the world. If he is wrong then we will know even more why about the subject. If he is right then our views have now dramatically changed! Now of course we have to take time ourselves to go to his material, in the rabbit hole of infos, fact check, check the sources etc… Or else we are no better than the other person we disagree with! Just lucky to be on the right side. Or! Not even knowing that we are in the wrong one and never being able to know it without putting the effort! Thanks to his comment and going down to the rabbit hole of infos and fact checking etc… I now know a lot more about what’s going there, Ukraine, the geopolitical states, Russia… and also why people may think like OP. Doesn’t mean I agree. But I have now a lot better and wider understanding than before. And that’s too bad to not respect people that just help ourselves to achieve that even if we disagree with them.