16 ms·

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish th

by lowkey 5y ago

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, just so we can make it harder on the authoritarians and oligarchs - are you ready to enlist in the Ukraine militia or is that too much to ask? It seems a little too facile to be willing to put others lives on the line when you are not willing to risk your own.

politician 5y ago
I don’t think you read their post. Try reading it again and again until you understand that imposing devastating sanctions on Russia that impacts their civilian population is a better strategy than risking a world wide nuclear exchange. If you still don’t get it, go buy DEFCON on Steam and play it a few times.
Glawen 5y ago
The sad truth is that Putin can only be removed from within Russia, by Russians. We cannot attack Russia without risking nuclear war, so imposing hardship to every russians is the best move we have. The guy is mad and made a bad strategic move by starting an unpopular war. This is the opportunity
- foxfluff 5y ago
  The sadder truth may be that Russians might not be interested in removing Putin. Decades of propaganda, murdering of opposition, and authoritarian response to protests has grown a people that largely believes in their leader and is also afraid to openly oppose authority.
  - konart 5y ago
    The sadder truth may be that you won't be getting anything much better than Putin from Russia in its current state.
    - nine_zeros 5y ago
      This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Good people exist in Russia. Putin just needs to be removed from the helm.
      - rurban 5y ago
        Russia deserves better than racist Navalny
      - konart 5y ago
        >This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Yeah, only because he's anti-Putin. People who follow internal deals more closely remember how he was marching with slogans "Russia for russians, Moscow for moscovians" and such. He always was very opportunistic in my opinion. I respect him for what he's done regarding investigations but he's not a president material. >Good people exist in Russia. Sure, but being a "good person" does not qualify you as president. No to mention that "good" is subjective. Many people see Putin as a good person.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    So most Russians are innocent and suffer by unfair sanctions that should be directed instead towards people Pro-Putin, like most Russians claim to be? This looks like a circular argument.
na85 5y ago
Did you miss this part of the comment to which you replied? >Yes your average Russian will get caught up in the sanctions. Yes it will be difficult and unpleasant for families.
sharpneli 5y ago
The tax income produced by those people is being used to fund the war. It is unfortunate but it's better to have a person become poor than another person being bombed. Ín a world without nukes they would be bombed too right now, because wars have a tendency of doing that regardless of who fights.
- dan-robertson 5y ago
  I think a counter argument is that these measures allow the situation to be described in Russia as a ‘west vs Russia’ situation which lines up well with media narratives people have been hearing for years rather than a ‘Russian army sent to kill Ukrainians’ which is less popular (eg many Russians will have close ties to some people in Ukraine). It feels to me that the best thing western governments could do is to signal reasonable conditions under which sanctions would be instantly lifted and give Russia a way to back down, though it isn’t clear to me what that way would be.
  - sharpneli 5y ago
    It's abundantly clear what the conditions are: Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted. Anything less let's Putin get away once again. And right now every country in Europe, and their citizens, are sick of Putin getting away every single time. I do have a personal stake in this. We're the only western neighbour of Russia that is not in NATO and has not been attacked by them after the fall of Soviet Union. We're basically next, and it wouldn't be the first time Russia would "defend" itself by driving tanks here. I heard enough stories from my grandparents who had to flee due to them. I thought that it's a thing of the past, but it very clearly is not.
    - ddalex 5y ago
      > : Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted. That would be too easy - there needs to be war reparations paid to Ukraine too - although nothing will bring back the lost lives. So what about - yes, sanctions lifted, and the 300 billion Russian state stashed away is given to Ukraine.
toomanyrichies 5y ago
I support sanctions precisely because I wouldn’t want to volunteer for any militia, and am therefore not prepared to ask others to do the same. If the options on the table are a) do nothing, b) launch a military counter-offensive which could lead to use of nuclear weapons and/or a cyber-war with as-yet unknown (but certainly devastating) consequences, or c) use economic measures to deprive Putin of the tax base he needs to fund his war, I choose option C. I’m willing to consider other options if they are presented.
- lowkey 5y ago
  You forgot D) stop directly subsidizing Putin’s war machine by buying Russia’s oil & gas.
  - toomanyrichies 5y ago
    I didn't forget it. I believe that's a sub-strategy of C. That said, even if you believe your suggestion is separate from mine, there's nothing to preclude choosing both C and D. If solely focusing on Russia's oil exports isn't enough to get the job done, we need to apply economic sanctions across a broader section of Russia's economy, if we're going to act at all.
    - lowkey 5y ago
      But my point is why start with broad sanctions applied to every Russian citizen instead of putting an immediate end to us directly subsidizing Putin’s was machine? Clearly the latter is more focused on the Russian government, ends a direct subsidy of our money paying for this war, and has much less direct impact on poor and struggling everyday Russians?
      - toomanyrichies 5y ago
        I'm not an economist, nor was I in the room when the sanctions decision was made. I can only guess that the experts who were in the room decided that depriving Putin of economic means was a time-sensitive process, and that petro-sanctions alone would take longer to have their effect than the Ukrainian army could hold out. At the very least, that's one of many possibilities of what happened.
helge9210 5y ago
> are you ready to enlist in the Ukraine militia or is that too much to ask? Not so fast. Militias are full. You can't even bribe your way in.
- akimball 5y ago
  Today, Ukraine MoD announced they will take anyone, except Russian citizens - no military experience required. 16000 Ukraine foreign legion sign-ups last I heard.
hagy 5y ago
Yes, it is unfortunate that ordinary Russian citizens are being harmed by the sanctions. But that is unavoidable and an acceptable side effect of weakening Putin’s war machine. We need to eliminate his ability to wage an inhuman war of aggression and asphyxiating the Russian economy that power’s his war machine is our best available option. War, including economic war, commonly involves massive harm to civilians. That includes civilians who oppose the war and are powerless to stop it. If the western powers and their allies could surgically snuff out Putin’s war machine without harm to innocent Russians then they would. Unfortunately that option is not available. So we accept that innocent Russians will suffer as we drain the financial blood from Putin’s war machine.
- lowkey 5y ago
  I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war. Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the people need to survive. Many innocent Russians will die directly because of the actions of the west. Their blood will be on our hands.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    I don’t see how stopping buying oil would be preferable from the perspective of a Russian citizen. Both will be economically ruinous to the Russian states, eventually. One hits innocent European citizens too, so it seems obvious which to choose.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lowkey 5y ago
      It is pretty simple really, consider the 2 options: 1) Stop buying oil & gas from oligarchs and Russian elites. The oils stays in Russia and Russians stay warm in winter. Putin loses billions in foreign currency which he was using to wage war in Ukraine - crippling his war machine virtually overnight. The elites and government lose 30% of their GDP and this was money that never trickled down to the plebs. It hurts the oligarchs and givernment who receive the revenue and taxes directly. 2) Broad economic sanctions mean everyday Russians can no longer buy food, medicine, clothing, batteries, electronics, shoes, or anything else from abroad. It hurts the middle-class and working class more than elites. Did you know for example that the sanctions against Russia include a carve-out protecting Italy’s ability to sell ultra high-end luxury and designer goods? Do you still think this is about targeting Russian elites?
usrusr 5y ago
Life isn't good under an incompetent government that doesn't care for its citizens, simple as that. It's not the responsibility of US, EU or anyone else to lessen that pain. Putin could have easily avoided the sanctions, he didn't. Avoiding the sanctions would not have required any particular skill or qualification. If instead of Putin a dog were president, the sanctions would not have happened. Bad luck for those who don't have a better government.
- lowkey 5y ago
  Why do you conflate Putin with the Russian people? Sanctioning oil and gas would end a direct war subsidy to Putin. Broad sanctions against the people of Russia don’t do nearly as much to stop the war as simply not buying petroleum-chemicals to fund Putin’s war chest. The Russian people are no more to blame here than Republicans who voted for George W Bush before he waged a war of aggression and killed 500k Iraqis based on a lie about WMD. In fact, the Russian people are less responsible than those Republicans since the US is supposed to be a democracy and Americans still have fair elections to vote unpopular candidates out. The only crime of the Russian people is the accident of being born inside her arbitrary borders. We should stop dehumanizing and punishing an entire population for the unconscionable actions of their authoritarian leader.

by lowkey 5y ago

politician 5y ago

I don’t think you read their post. Try reading it again and again until you understand that imposing devastating sanctions on Russia that impacts their civilian population is a better strategy than risking a world wide nuclear exchange. If you still don’t get it, go buy DEFCON on Steam and play it a few times.

Glawen 5y ago

The sad truth is that Putin can only be removed from within Russia, by Russians. We cannot attack Russia without risking nuclear war, so imposing hardship to every russians is the best move we have. The guy is mad and made a bad strategic move by starting an unpopular war. This is the opportunity

foxfluff 5y ago
The sadder truth may be that Russians might not be interested in removing Putin. Decades of propaganda, murdering of opposition, and authoritarian response to protests has grown a people that largely believes in their leader and is also afraid to openly oppose authority.
- konart 5y ago
  The sadder truth may be that you won't be getting anything much better than Putin from Russia in its current state.
  - nine_zeros 5y ago
    This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Good people exist in Russia. Putin just needs to be removed from the helm.
    - rurban 5y ago
      Russia deserves better than racist Navalny
    - konart 5y ago
      >This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Yeah, only because he's anti-Putin. People who follow internal deals more closely remember how he was marching with slogans "Russia for russians, Moscow for moscovians" and such. He always was very opportunistic in my opinion. I respect him for what he's done regarding investigations but he's not a president material. >Good people exist in Russia. Sure, but being a "good person" does not qualify you as president. No to mention that "good" is subjective. Many people see Putin as a good person.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  So most Russians are innocent and suffer by unfair sanctions that should be directed instead towards people Pro-Putin, like most Russians claim to be? This looks like a circular argument.

na85 5y ago

Did you miss this part of the comment to which you replied? >Yes your average Russian will get caught up in the sanctions. Yes it will be difficult and unpleasant for families.

sharpneli 5y ago

The tax income produced by those people is being used to fund the war. It is unfortunate but it's better to have a person become poor than another person being bombed. Ín a world without nukes they would be bombed too right now, because wars have a tendency of doing that regardless of who fights.

dan-robertson 5y ago
I think a counter argument is that these measures allow the situation to be described in Russia as a ‘west vs Russia’ situation which lines up well with media narratives people have been hearing for years rather than a ‘Russian army sent to kill Ukrainians’ which is less popular (eg many Russians will have close ties to some people in Ukraine). It feels to me that the best thing western governments could do is to signal reasonable conditions under which sanctions would be instantly lifted and give Russia a way to back down, though it isn’t clear to me what that way would be.
- sharpneli 5y ago
  It's abundantly clear what the conditions are: Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted. Anything less let's Putin get away once again. And right now every country in Europe, and their citizens, are sick of Putin getting away every single time. I do have a personal stake in this. We're the only western neighbour of Russia that is not in NATO and has not been attacked by them after the fall of Soviet Union. We're basically next, and it wouldn't be the first time Russia would "defend" itself by driving tanks here. I heard enough stories from my grandparents who had to flee due to them. I thought that it's a thing of the past, but it very clearly is not.
  - ddalex 5y ago
    > : Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted. That would be too easy - there needs to be war reparations paid to Ukraine too - although nothing will bring back the lost lives. So what about - yes, sanctions lifted, and the 300 billion Russian state stashed away is given to Ukraine.

toomanyrichies 5y ago

I support sanctions precisely because I wouldn’t want to volunteer for any militia, and am therefore not prepared to ask others to do the same. If the options on the table are a) do nothing, b) launch a military counter-offensive which could lead to use of nuclear weapons and/or a cyber-war with as-yet unknown (but certainly devastating) consequences, or c) use economic measures to deprive Putin of the tax base he needs to fund his war, I choose option C. I’m willing to consider other options if they are presented.

lowkey 5y ago
You forgot D) stop directly subsidizing Putin’s war machine by buying Russia’s oil & gas.
- toomanyrichies 5y ago
  I didn't forget it. I believe that's a sub-strategy of C. That said, even if you believe your suggestion is separate from mine, there's nothing to preclude choosing both C and D. If solely focusing on Russia's oil exports isn't enough to get the job done, we need to apply economic sanctions across a broader section of Russia's economy, if we're going to act at all.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    But my point is why start with broad sanctions applied to every Russian citizen instead of putting an immediate end to us directly subsidizing Putin’s was machine? Clearly the latter is more focused on the Russian government, ends a direct subsidy of our money paying for this war, and has much less direct impact on poor and struggling everyday Russians?
    - toomanyrichies 5y ago
      I'm not an economist, nor was I in the room when the sanctions decision was made. I can only guess that the experts who were in the room decided that depriving Putin of economic means was a time-sensitive process, and that petro-sanctions alone would take longer to have their effect than the Ukrainian army could hold out. At the very least, that's one of many possibilities of what happened.

helge9210 5y ago

> are you ready to enlist in the Ukraine militia or is that too much to ask? Not so fast. Militias are full. You can't even bribe your way in.

akimball 5y ago
Today, Ukraine MoD announced they will take anyone, except Russian citizens - no military experience required. 16000 Ukraine foreign legion sign-ups last I heard.

hagy 5y ago

Yes, it is unfortunate that ordinary Russian citizens are being harmed by the sanctions. But that is unavoidable and an acceptable side effect of weakening Putin’s war machine. We need to eliminate his ability to wage an inhuman war of aggression and asphyxiating the Russian economy that power’s his war machine is our best available option. War, including economic war, commonly involves massive harm to civilians. That includes civilians who oppose the war and are powerless to stop it. If the western powers and their allies could surgically snuff out Putin’s war machine without harm to innocent Russians then they would. Unfortunately that option is not available. So we accept that innocent Russians will suffer as we drain the financial blood from Putin’s war machine.

lowkey 5y ago
I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war. Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the people need to survive. Many innocent Russians will die directly because of the actions of the west. Their blood will be on our hands.
- bigfudge 5y ago
  I don’t see how stopping buying oil would be preferable from the perspective of a Russian citizen. Both will be economically ruinous to the Russian states, eventually. One hits innocent European citizens too, so it seems obvious which to choose.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lowkey 5y ago
    It is pretty simple really, consider the 2 options: 1) Stop buying oil & gas from oligarchs and Russian elites. The oils stays in Russia and Russians stay warm in winter. Putin loses billions in foreign currency which he was using to wage war in Ukraine - crippling his war machine virtually overnight. The elites and government lose 30% of their GDP and this was money that never trickled down to the plebs. It hurts the oligarchs and givernment who receive the revenue and taxes directly. 2) Broad economic sanctions mean everyday Russians can no longer buy food, medicine, clothing, batteries, electronics, shoes, or anything else from abroad. It hurts the middle-class and working class more than elites. Did you know for example that the sanctions against Russia include a carve-out protecting Italy’s ability to sell ultra high-end luxury and designer goods? Do you still think this is about targeting Russian elites?

usrusr 5y ago

Life isn't good under an incompetent government that doesn't care for its citizens, simple as that. It's not the responsibility of US, EU or anyone else to lessen that pain. Putin could have easily avoided the sanctions, he didn't. Avoiding the sanctions would not have required any particular skill or qualification. If instead of Putin a dog were president, the sanctions would not have happened. Bad luck for those who don't have a better government.

lowkey 5y ago
Why do you conflate Putin with the Russian people? Sanctioning oil and gas would end a direct war subsidy to Putin. Broad sanctions against the people of Russia don’t do nearly as much to stop the war as simply not buying petroleum-chemicals to fund Putin’s war chest. The Russian people are no more to blame here than Republicans who voted for George W Bush before he waged a war of aggression and killed 500k Iraqis based on a lie about WMD. In fact, the Russian people are less responsible than those Republicans since the US is supposed to be a democracy and Americans still have fair elections to vote unpopular candidates out. The only crime of the Russian people is the accident of being born inside her arbitrary borders. We should stop dehumanizing and punishing an entire population for the unconscionable actions of their authoritarian leader.