6 ms·

Europe is the free-rider continent

15 points by nceqs3 5y ago

88913527 5y ago
Everywhere free rides off the innovation produced by the United States. Everyone. I don't see why we'd be calling out Europe specifically, though perhaps there are interesting introspections to be made there.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  It seems like the US gets a disproportionate amount of talent and resources from the rest of the world in return though. It's not like the US will do as well without that and it's to some extent just where the globalization/centralization benefits are paying off the most. The US also does have more resources and advances for its citizens so it looks to me like it's having a plenty good deal.
- aliswe 5y ago
  Because (western) europe seems to be a model group of countries out of nearly every aspect, IMHO.
- hef19898 5y ago
  That picture looks a lot different if you exclude web technologies, doesn't it? When it somes to hardware, again excluding consumer tech (where most tech is actually Asian), Europe and Japan seem to be, still, the front runners. Or how many micro chips would be made without German machinery? Or consumer tech without industrail robots. The US excels at marketing technology, as an over simplyfication I'll attribute that to an abundance of VC money and a hige one-language market.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
    > Or how many micro chips would be made without German machinery? More than would be made without Dutch machinery, seeing how as ASML is a Dutch company, spun off from Philips, another Dutch company.
- polskibus 5y ago
  Innovation requires capital (human, financial, natural resources, etc.) capital requires strong economy, stability, etc. USA has all of it, moreover it can buy the lacking components with dollars. USA has been strengthening their global position for years, since fighting off the Great Depression. Their unique position is further strengthened by the fact that the dollar they control is used in international trade. There is no way to compete with that head on, in the best case Americans just pay people with more money or buy the company outright. Europe does not have massive oil, gas, ore reserves. Most of it is a federation of culturally very different nations. Capital is scarce in contrast to USA. It’s really much harder to find support when developing new products and services because an error can destroy your life or career - our bankruptcy laws are less forgiving. All of that makes copying much more attractive here - it is less risky in an environment that punishes you when the risk materialises worse than in USA.
  - nceqs3 5y ago
    well put
  - hef19898 5y ago
    What you say may be ttue for the classic startup kind of innovation, less so for scintific ground work, developments in large existing companies and so on. In terms of patents, Europe is pretty much among the global leaders. Did we forget were two of the earliest COVId vaccines came from? Which aeroapace giant is building the more advanced civilian planes? Whos building the better quality cars (besides pushing EVs, even Teslas build quality is nowhere near that of European or Asian manufacturers, nor are other US brands)?
    - nceqs3 5y ago
      The vaccines came from decades of NIH funded research and the US Govt's actions (in partnership with the private sector) during the actual pandemic.
      - hef19898 5y ago
        AstraZeneca came from Oxford (or was it Cambridge?), Pfizer from BionTech which was mainoy funded by the EU. Moderna was the US contender. That makes two of three that didn't come from the US, and I don't want to look up vaccination rates by vacvine per nation now.
dzink 5y ago
Europe outsources defense to the US, but the prize for the US being a top military power is also having the top currency. Almost all world banks have to report to US inquiries about account information, but no US bank has to do that for abroad. A dollar used as reserve currency worldwide means much higher value of US savings, real estate, stock market, in which any American can participate. Multiple military lead pretenders also eventually clash. Whenever the military is strong a leader who wants to remain in power has to abide by them and there is a risk of war. Those who have outsourced their military mostly to US in Europe have seen prosperity and peace and trade and social systems that would otherwise be a eaten by conflict in an area historically torn by it. Germany also outsources food to southern Europe (EU) and energy to Russia. No different than US states that choose to specialize and benefit from all the wealth generated by the entire union for anything they are not an expert in.
- hef19898 5y ago
  The US clearly are an outlier when it comes to military spending, and the European NATO memebrs did downsize their armies since the end of the cold war. Looking at this (https://cimsec.org/nato-defense-spending-past-present-part-1/ https://cimsec.org/nato-defense-spending-past-present-part-1...) shows a less clear cut picture so. Was the US the top military NATO spender? Yes. Was it also the biggest economic power? Yes. Did the other nations significantly under spend? No.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >Europe outsources defense to the US, but the prize for the US being a top military power is also having the top currency. Almost all world banks have to report to US inquiries about account information, but no US bank has to do that for abroad. Europe's failure to spend sufficiently in its defense has absolutely nothing to do with the US dollar's role as the global reserve currency.
foepys 5y ago
While there are some truths in there, other points are just assumptions to make the author's point. I can only speak about Germany but 35 hours weeks are long gone except for some large companies, retirement age is 67 now, which is far away from one "being in their prime". Germany's arms production is very advanced, the Leopard 2 is one of the best tanks in the world, German submarines are apparently the best non-nuclear submarines you can buy, and German guns are used all around the world. The government just somehow didn't want to put much money into defense which was luckily now reversed swiftly. In general the EU has put great effort in projects to develop weapon systems that are used by more than one country, see projects like the Eurofighter, A400M, and NH90. It might not be enough but the article just dismisses it as if it didn't happen. The praise of America's "cut-throat model" also ignores all downsides of it. High poverty rates, bad healthcare, and in general high inequality.
- hef19898 5y ago
  And even if German work weeks would be, mostly, 35 hours the question is the overall output isn't it? And there, Germany is usually at very top end of each statistic I can remember. In output per employee that is. And it not just German arms, French subs were good enough for Australia, Belgian small arms are used by everyone... I could go on.
  - nceqs3 5y ago
    >the question is the overall output isn't it? Well considering German arms are nothing more than show pieces, it's output is, well, zero. Although this could be changing as Germany finally changes its defensive posture after the Ukraine invasion.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      https://www.statista.com/chart/17316/share-of-global-arms-exports-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/chart/17316/share-of-global-arms-ex... Well, being arms exporter number 4, after the US, Russia and France, and in front of China is definitly not zero. Now exclude the really expensive stuff like the F-35 and the picture even looks less clear. Well, I dont consider arms exports to be a good thing to brag about. But every statistic I know of clearly shows the EU, and Europe are much more inovative and much less "free-riding" than that article might make you believe.
Ourgon 5y ago
We're still living in the tail-end of the second world war, which was a continuation of the first world war. Let's hope this does not end up being known as "the second interbellum" [1] and that Europe learns to stand on its own feet when it comes to defence so it can withstand whatever comes at it from the (far) east as well as from the west. Let's also hope that this does not end up as yet another attempt at creating what would now be the "Fourth Reich". The same factors which made Europe the cradle of modern civilisation also make it into a belligerent place filled with both bright people as well as big ideas. This is a volatile combination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interwar_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interwar_period
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jinushaun 5y ago
Free rider? I think the technical term is “pax americana”.

15 points by nceqs3 5y ago

Everywhere free rides off the innovation produced by the United States. Everyone. I don't see why we'd be calling out Europe specifically, though perhaps there are interesting introspections to be made there.

Tenoke 5y ago
It seems like the US gets a disproportionate amount of talent and resources from the rest of the world in return though. It's not like the US will do as well without that and it's to some extent just where the globalization/centralization benefits are paying off the most. The US also does have more resources and advances for its citizens so it looks to me like it's having a plenty good deal.
aliswe 5y ago
Because (western) europe seems to be a model group of countries out of nearly every aspect, IMHO.
hef19898 5y ago
That picture looks a lot different if you exclude web technologies, doesn't it? When it somes to hardware, again excluding consumer tech (where most tech is actually Asian), Europe and Japan seem to be, still, the front runners. Or how many micro chips would be made without German machinery? Or consumer tech without industrail robots. The US excels at marketing technology, as an over simplyfication I'll attribute that to an abundance of VC money and a hige one-language market.
- Ourgon 5y ago
  > Or how many micro chips would be made without German machinery? More than would be made without Dutch machinery, seeing how as ASML is a Dutch company, spun off from Philips, another Dutch company.
polskibus 5y ago
Innovation requires capital (human, financial, natural resources, etc.) capital requires strong economy, stability, etc. USA has all of it, moreover it can buy the lacking components with dollars. USA has been strengthening their global position for years, since fighting off the Great Depression. Their unique position is further strengthened by the fact that the dollar they control is used in international trade. There is no way to compete with that head on, in the best case Americans just pay people with more money or buy the company outright. Europe does not have massive oil, gas, ore reserves. Most of it is a federation of culturally very different nations. Capital is scarce in contrast to USA. It’s really much harder to find support when developing new products and services because an error can destroy your life or career - our bankruptcy laws are less forgiving. All of that makes copying much more attractive here - it is less risky in an environment that punishes you when the risk materialises worse than in USA.
- nceqs3 5y ago
  well put
- hef19898 5y ago
  What you say may be ttue for the classic startup kind of innovation, less so for scintific ground work, developments in large existing companies and so on. In terms of patents, Europe is pretty much among the global leaders. Did we forget were two of the earliest COVId vaccines came from? Which aeroapace giant is building the more advanced civilian planes? Whos building the better quality cars (besides pushing EVs, even Teslas build quality is nowhere near that of European or Asian manufacturers, nor are other US brands)?
  - nceqs3 5y ago
    The vaccines came from decades of NIH funded research and the US Govt's actions (in partnership with the private sector) during the actual pandemic.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      AstraZeneca came from Oxford (or was it Cambridge?), Pfizer from BionTech which was mainoy funded by the EU. Moderna was the US contender. That makes two of three that didn't come from the US, and I don't want to look up vaccination rates by vacvine per nation now.

dzink 5y ago

Europe outsources defense to the US, but the prize for the US being a top military power is also having the top currency. Almost all world banks have to report to US inquiries about account information, but no US bank has to do that for abroad. A dollar used as reserve currency worldwide means much higher value of US savings, real estate, stock market, in which any American can participate. Multiple military lead pretenders also eventually clash. Whenever the military is strong a leader who wants to remain in power has to abide by them and there is a risk of war. Those who have outsourced their military mostly to US in Europe have seen prosperity and peace and trade and social systems that would otherwise be a eaten by conflict in an area historically torn by it. Germany also outsources food to southern Europe (EU) and energy to Russia. No different than US states that choose to specialize and benefit from all the wealth generated by the entire union for anything they are not an expert in.

hef19898 5y ago
The US clearly are an outlier when it comes to military spending, and the European NATO memebrs did downsize their armies since the end of the cold war. Looking at this (https://cimsec.org/nato-defense-spending-past-present-part-1/ https://cimsec.org/nato-defense-spending-past-present-part-1...) shows a less clear cut picture so. Was the US the top military NATO spender? Yes. Was it also the biggest economic power? Yes. Did the other nations significantly under spend? No.
TMWNN 5y ago
>Europe outsources defense to the US, but the prize for the US being a top military power is also having the top currency. Almost all world banks have to report to US inquiries about account information, but no US bank has to do that for abroad. Europe's failure to spend sufficiently in its defense has absolutely nothing to do with the US dollar's role as the global reserve currency.

foepys 5y ago

While there are some truths in there, other points are just assumptions to make the author's point. I can only speak about Germany but 35 hours weeks are long gone except for some large companies, retirement age is 67 now, which is far away from one "being in their prime". Germany's arms production is very advanced, the Leopard 2 is one of the best tanks in the world, German submarines are apparently the best non-nuclear submarines you can buy, and German guns are used all around the world. The government just somehow didn't want to put much money into defense which was luckily now reversed swiftly. In general the EU has put great effort in projects to develop weapon systems that are used by more than one country, see projects like the Eurofighter, A400M, and NH90. It might not be enough but the article just dismisses it as if it didn't happen. The praise of America's "cut-throat model" also ignores all downsides of it. High poverty rates, bad healthcare, and in general high inequality.

hef19898 5y ago
And even if German work weeks would be, mostly, 35 hours the question is the overall output isn't it? And there, Germany is usually at very top end of each statistic I can remember. In output per employee that is. And it not just German arms, French subs were good enough for Australia, Belgian small arms are used by everyone... I could go on.
- nceqs3 5y ago
  >the question is the overall output isn't it? Well considering German arms are nothing more than show pieces, it's output is, well, zero. Although this could be changing as Germany finally changes its defensive posture after the Ukraine invasion.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    https://www.statista.com/chart/17316/share-of-global-arms-exports-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/chart/17316/share-of-global-arms-ex... Well, being arms exporter number 4, after the US, Russia and France, and in front of China is definitly not zero. Now exclude the really expensive stuff like the F-35 and the picture even looks less clear. Well, I dont consider arms exports to be a good thing to brag about. But every statistic I know of clearly shows the EU, and Europe are much more inovative and much less "free-riding" than that article might make you believe.

Ourgon 5y ago

We're still living in the tail-end of the second world war, which was a continuation of the first world war. Let's hope this does not end up being known as "the second interbellum" [1] and that Europe learns to stand on its own feet when it comes to defence so it can withstand whatever comes at it from the (far) east as well as from the west. Let's also hope that this does not end up as yet another attempt at creating what would now be the "Fourth Reich". The same factors which made Europe the cradle of modern civilisation also make it into a belligerent place filled with both bright people as well as big ideas. This is a volatile combination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interwar_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interwar_period

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jinushaun 5y ago

Free rider? I think the technical term is “pax americana”.