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I'm 100% against the war, but the American hypocrisy here is next level. This isn't an ethnic genocide. Had Putin wanted to kill civilians you wouldn't have 10

I'm 100% against the war, but the American hypocrisy here is next level. This isn't an ethnic genocide. Had Putin wanted to kill civilians you wouldn't have 100s of deaths but millions like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just like the US he is looking to overturn the government. The reality is that some people in Ukraine (Donbas and large portion of the East) do support Russia. Truth is never black and white.

drran 5y ago
This is ethnic genocide. Just look at Ukrainians in Crimea, Donbas, or RF: they are extinct. Ukrainian language and literature are forbidden in RF. Crimes against ethnic minorities are not prosecuted. IMHO, Ukraine should just nuke few millions of Russians to protect millions of Ukrainians. Pooking is crazy.
adrian_b 5y ago
You are right that there are many people in Ukraine who support Russia. However, we should not forget why this is so. During WWII and after WWII, the Russians have forcibly moved a very large number of people from the territory that is now in Ukraine, to various unpleasant locations in the Soviet Union, mostly in Siberia. Then they have brought Russian colonists, who were settled usually in the houses from which the natives had been evicted. The descendants of those Russians brought in Ukraine, mostly by Stalin, have obviously not been happy with the independence of Ukraine, when they have become a 2nd rate nationality from a previously privileged one, like also the Russian colonists from other former parts of the Soviet Union, e.g. the Baltic countries or Georgia. I agree that the Russians, now in minority, have their rights like anyone else, and they should not be persecuted by the new majority, but at the same time I do not believe that people who have so recently occupied by force the land on which they live now have the moral right to request "democratically" that their present country should become again a part of the empire which gave them houses and jobs, but those houses and jobs were provided by what was stolen from the former inhabitants.
- akrymski 5y ago
  Most definitely. And I believe that was the option Putin proposed to Zelensky, as long as he agrees to not join NATO.
Etherlord87 5y ago
> Had Putin wanted to kill civilians you wouldn't have 100s of deaths but millions like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this some grim joke? Had putin wanted to kill civilians, he could use nuclear weaponry in various forms to kill billions. But putin, like everyone in this world, is limited by various factors, like army morale, or the patience of its neighbors. The economical situation of russia is terrible, but it can always get worse, and making a full scale attack against civilians, would end up with even more dramatic response like even China sanctioning them, or EU sanctioning them completely with complete disregard to own economy (no gas) or some kind of alliance actually attacking a nuclear empire for the first time in history (not counting the Japanese who didn't expect USA to develop the technology so fast), or... Simply putin would be killed by some highly ranked officer. > Just like the US What is it with all this symmetrism on HN? putin invaded Ukraine without casus belli.
- akrymski 5y ago
  Or maybe he actually doesn't want to kill the civilians but wants to overthrow the government that he believes is targeting Russians in Eastern Ukraine and wishes to deploy US missiles on Russian borders? I don't think we can find a diplomatic solution unless we truly try to understand the enemy. Saying he did this with no reason doesn't help this. There's always a reason for any war. Bush had a reason to invade Iraq after all, didn't he? What was the real reason? Putin views this as a proxy war between US and Russia. Cuban missile crisis was similar: US placed nukes in Turkey, too close for Russia's liking. Russia said they'd place nukes in Cuba. After US threatened WW3 a deal was reached and both sides pulled their nukes. We could have achieved a similar deal and saved countless lived. But for whatever reason nobody wanted to negotiate with Putin. That would be fine if NATO would actually protect Ukraine instead of leaving them to fight on their own.
  - drran 5y ago
    You are saying that Pooking kills civilians because he don't want to kill civilians. It's looks like you are as crazy or rational as Pooking, so you can reason like him. However, normal people cannot think like crazy people, so they just declare a crazy person as «crazy» and try to isolate them instead of understanding them. Actually, I tried to understand Pooking by inducing paranoia in myself. When I did that, all his actions become quite logical. He sees RF as victim of evil NATO. Any action of NATO is a step in evil plan to destroy RF. RF is so smart, so they see the evil plan of NATO, while others are blind, or pretend that they doesn't understand, or are playing their roles in the evil plan. Your text is quite logical when I'm switching to «paranoia» mode.

drran 5y ago

This is ethnic genocide. Just look at Ukrainians in Crimea, Donbas, or RF: they are extinct. Ukrainian language and literature are forbidden in RF. Crimes against ethnic minorities are not prosecuted. IMHO, Ukraine should just nuke few millions of Russians to protect millions of Ukrainians. Pooking is crazy.

adrian_b 5y ago

You are right that there are many people in Ukraine who support Russia. However, we should not forget why this is so. During WWII and after WWII, the Russians have forcibly moved a very large number of people from the territory that is now in Ukraine, to various unpleasant locations in the Soviet Union, mostly in Siberia. Then they have brought Russian colonists, who were settled usually in the houses from which the natives had been evicted. The descendants of those Russians brought in Ukraine, mostly by Stalin, have obviously not been happy with the independence of Ukraine, when they have become a 2nd rate nationality from a previously privileged one, like also the Russian colonists from other former parts of the Soviet Union, e.g. the Baltic countries or Georgia. I agree that the Russians, now in minority, have their rights like anyone else, and they should not be persecuted by the new majority, but at the same time I do not believe that people who have so recently occupied by force the land on which they live now have the moral right to request "democratically" that their present country should become again a part of the empire which gave them houses and jobs, but those houses and jobs were provided by what was stolen from the former inhabitants.

akrymski 5y ago
Most definitely. And I believe that was the option Putin proposed to Zelensky, as long as he agrees to not join NATO.

Etherlord87 5y ago

> Had Putin wanted to kill civilians you wouldn't have 100s of deaths but millions like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this some grim joke? Had putin wanted to kill civilians, he could use nuclear weaponry in various forms to kill billions. But putin, like everyone in this world, is limited by various factors, like army morale, or the patience of its neighbors. The economical situation of russia is terrible, but it can always get worse, and making a full scale attack against civilians, would end up with even more dramatic response like even China sanctioning them, or EU sanctioning them completely with complete disregard to own economy (no gas) or some kind of alliance actually attacking a nuclear empire for the first time in history (not counting the Japanese who didn't expect USA to develop the technology so fast), or... Simply putin would be killed by some highly ranked officer. > Just like the US What is it with all this symmetrism on HN? putin invaded Ukraine without casus belli.

akrymski 5y ago
Or maybe he actually doesn't want to kill the civilians but wants to overthrow the government that he believes is targeting Russians in Eastern Ukraine and wishes to deploy US missiles on Russian borders? I don't think we can find a diplomatic solution unless we truly try to understand the enemy. Saying he did this with no reason doesn't help this. There's always a reason for any war. Bush had a reason to invade Iraq after all, didn't he? What was the real reason? Putin views this as a proxy war between US and Russia. Cuban missile crisis was similar: US placed nukes in Turkey, too close for Russia's liking. Russia said they'd place nukes in Cuba. After US threatened WW3 a deal was reached and both sides pulled their nukes. We could have achieved a similar deal and saved countless lived. But for whatever reason nobody wanted to negotiate with Putin. That would be fine if NATO would actually protect Ukraine instead of leaving them to fight on their own.
- drran 5y ago
  You are saying that Pooking kills civilians because he don't want to kill civilians. It's looks like you are as crazy or rational as Pooking, so you can reason like him. However, normal people cannot think like crazy people, so they just declare a crazy person as «crazy» and try to isolate them instead of understanding them. Actually, I tried to understand Pooking by inducing paranoia in myself. When I did that, all his actions become quite logical. He sees RF as victim of evil NATO. Any action of NATO is a step in evil plan to destroy RF. RF is so smart, so they see the evil plan of NATO, while others are blind, or pretend that they doesn't understand, or are playing their roles in the evil plan. Your text is quite logical when I'm switching to «paranoia» mode.