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> a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. Its easy to say that but you have to look at the bigger picture

> a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. Its easy to say that but you have to look at the bigger picture. It's easy to say "just punish the government / the oligarchs", but as most Westerners know, these people have become extraordinarily adept at hiding their money and distributing their assets. So it is very difficult indeed to target them per-se, hence you need to make it difficult to move money/assets around, sell assets and gain new money/assets. You also need to look at the even bigger problem. How do we stop Russia attacking Ukraine ? Nobody wants World War 3. Even the Americans who are usually keen to test out their latest toys are being remarkably disciplined about sitting on their hands. So, you don't want to engage in a direct fight with the Russians, what's left on the table ? Diplomacy ? Well, they've tried and are trying, but not much light at the end of that tunnel as of yet. So your only option left is to accept that running a war needs two things, money and supplies. If both of those dry up then its only a matter of time before the war grinds to a halt too. Hence you end up doing things that affect banks, the central bank, transport and logistics. Regrettably its not just about targeting the military and the government, you have to target the supporting structures too (food, parts, consumables), hence you need to go big and go fast on sanctions. Yes your average Russian will get caught up in the sanctions. Yes it will be difficult and unpleasant for families. But frankly the alternative, full-blown war across Europe and the potential for nuclear bombs being used is unfathomably worse for everyone both inside Russia and outside.

lowkey 5y ago
I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, just so we can make it harder on the authoritarians and oligarchs - are you ready to enlist in the Ukraine militia or is that too much to ask? It seems a little too facile to be willing to put others lives on the line when you are not willing to risk your own.
- politician 5y ago
  I don’t think you read their post. Try reading it again and again until you understand that imposing devastating sanctions on Russia that impacts their civilian population is a better strategy than risking a world wide nuclear exchange. If you still don’t get it, go buy DEFCON on Steam and play it a few times.
- Glawen 5y ago
  The sad truth is that Putin can only be removed from within Russia, by Russians. We cannot attack Russia without risking nuclear war, so imposing hardship to every russians is the best move we have. The guy is mad and made a bad strategic move by starting an unpopular war. This is the opportunity
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    The sadder truth may be that Russians might not be interested in removing Putin. Decades of propaganda, murdering of opposition, and authoritarian response to protests has grown a people that largely believes in their leader and is also afraid to openly oppose authority.
    - konart 5y ago
      The sadder truth may be that you won't be getting anything much better than Putin from Russia in its current state.
      - nine_zeros 5y ago
        This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Good people exist in Russia. Putin just needs to be removed from the helm.
        rurban 5y ago
        Russia deserves better than racist Navalny
maybelsyrup 5y ago
> Nobody wants World War 3. Small point but this isn't exactly true, especially among US policymakers and media people. All you need to do here is read the chorus of people in official / corporate media going "nuclear war would be bad, but [...]". You can also rewind to the enormous shit-fit Washington types threw last summer when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, or go even further back to the Iraq war. Washington is full of chickenhawk warmongers dying to send other people's children into battle, consequences be damned. It's the rare thing that is really bipartisan, too. A lot of people's careers depend on support for World War III, so they find a way to be okay with it.
- foxfluff 5y ago
  There's also people who see it this way: world war 2 ended Hitler, world war 3 may be needed to end Putler. A war might be the only way to take out a genocidal dictator-terrorist who threatens the entire world with nukes.
  - maybelsyrup 5y ago
    Yes right, this is what I mean by "they find a way to be okay with it." Well-meaning and high-minded establishment types like Tom Friedman or Jeffrey Goldberg or David Frum wouldn't let themselves indulge in outright bloodlust; that would be too crass, too icky, and too honest. So they concoct little children's tales like "WW3 may be needed to end Putler" to rationalize it. This is an ego defense: a mechanism to protect against the anxiety of seeing yourself as something horrible (seeing yourself honestly, in this case).
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      Independently of whether it's a rationalisation or not, it might be the actual reality of the situation. Maybe WW3 actually _is_ needed to unseat him (though I hope it's not).
      - wilkommen 5y ago
        Well if that’s true then we just shouldn’t try to unseat him.
tsol 5y ago
- BossingAround 5y ago
  > I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They don't want Ukraine to "stay in their orbit," they are colonizers that are fighting against Ukraine's independence. Putin said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Nobody in NATO is eager to accept Ukraine. Ukraine said they'd stay independent. Now, Putin is saying that Ukraine is essentially Russian, and he's bringing up fake news about genocide and neonazi government. If you think that Putin will stop at Ukraine, you're sorely mistaken. It's Ukraine now, Georgia right after, and then we shall see. You do not negotiate with terrorists. We've tried. Ever since Crimea in 2014, the west has been in one large negotiation with Russia, and obviously, nothing worked. At this point, it's all-out everything except actual troops on ground, because it's obvious Putin won't stop unless he's stopped in some way.
  - BbzzbB 5y ago
    I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the time of his choosing, seemingly now.
    - throwaway_4ever 5y ago
      Yes, anyone believing Putin is scared of NATO offense (he just doesn't want NATO defense) has to reconcile the conflicting viewpoints that he's simultaneously scared of NATO attacking Russia but not worried about them just defending the invasion of a sovereign country, Ukraine...
  - aszantu 5y ago
    Looks like merica does negotiate with Neonazis though https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine
skybrian 5y ago
Although it supports the Ukrainians and that’s important, I don’t see how sanctions reduce the likelihood of wider war? It is, in its way, an escalation, though a safer one than directly entering the conflict. It seems Putin sprung this on the rest of Russia as a surprise decision. (Of course the signs were there.) Did he bother to get the support of the oligarchs or anyone else first? It’s not at all clear he has anyone’s support; he just has their obedience. Morally speaking, this looks rather simple: it’s Putin’s big mistake. To the extent that others failed to stop the invasion, it was by failing to influence him. But a paranoid and isolated dictator isn’t easily influenced. Punishing other Russians for this, particularly outside Russia and Ukraine, often has no purpose and is a form of cruelty.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Although it supports the Ukrainians and that’s important, I don’t see how sanctions reduce the likelihood of wider war? By reducing the capacity for wider war. I think this summarizes it, without a focus on war capacity specifically, but the impact on war capacity flows directly from this: https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1499157917399977987 https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1499157917399...
- branko_d 5y ago
  Lifting sanctions can becime a powerful motivator in any future negotiations.
- bigfudge 5y ago
  Let’s be clear. The Russians being punished outside of Russia have blood on their hands. They should never have been allowed to buy property and football clubs in the uk, because they weee gangster crooks who had stolen from their own country. That the uk govt was complicit in this at the time doesn’t make it wrong to act against them now. I have a lot more sympathy for the people hurt in Russsia now. Russians, whether they have been brainwashed into supporting Putin or not, are in for a bad time in the coming years.
  - skybrian 5y ago
Animats 5y ago
> Nobody wants World War 3. ... the alternative, full-blown war across Europe and the potential for nuclear bombs being used is unfathomably worse for everyone both inside Russia and outside. We may get it by mistake. A wider war in Europe is all too likely. The NATO countries and the EU are shipping large amounts of military supplies into Ukraine. One story mentions 17 US widebody cargo aircraft per day going into Poland. This is a real threat to Russia's attacks, because the supplies include the good anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons. That leaves the Russian army fighting as infantry against a much larger armed population, a long, bloody slog. Unless Russia can cut off outside supplies, there's no path to victory. It's all too likely that some attempt to attack Ukranian supply lines will reach over the border into a NATO country. Just some Russian pilot in Ukraine in a fight making a turn too slowly could result in overflying Polish territory. Where the air defenses are ready to shoot down anything hostile. Re-read how WWI started. Everybody had mutual-defense treaties, and one minor event set it all off. 2 hours ago: "Putin says sanctions introduced on Russia are equal to a "declaration of war"" - CNN.
- leshow 5y ago
  > Russian President Vladimir Putin has described sanctions imposed by Western nations over his invasion of Ukraine as "akin to a declaration of war". > "But thank God it has not come to that," he added. The bit he added at the end is important.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I don't think you'll hear in real time how close we probably already came, but maybe after all the dust has settled there might be some stories along those lines. For now, we are on a knife edge, and the number of refugees is mounting steadily. I expect we'll be in the millions by the end of next week.

lowkey 5y ago

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, just so we can make it harder on the authoritarians and oligarchs - are you ready to enlist in the Ukraine militia or is that too much to ask? It seems a little too facile to be willing to put others lives on the line when you are not willing to risk your own.

politician 5y ago
I don’t think you read their post. Try reading it again and again until you understand that imposing devastating sanctions on Russia that impacts their civilian population is a better strategy than risking a world wide nuclear exchange. If you still don’t get it, go buy DEFCON on Steam and play it a few times.
Glawen 5y ago
The sad truth is that Putin can only be removed from within Russia, by Russians. We cannot attack Russia without risking nuclear war, so imposing hardship to every russians is the best move we have. The guy is mad and made a bad strategic move by starting an unpopular war. This is the opportunity
- foxfluff 5y ago
  The sadder truth may be that Russians might not be interested in removing Putin. Decades of propaganda, murdering of opposition, and authoritarian response to protests has grown a people that largely believes in their leader and is also afraid to openly oppose authority.
  - konart 5y ago
    The sadder truth may be that you won't be getting anything much better than Putin from Russia in its current state.
    - nine_zeros 5y ago
      This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Good people exist in Russia. Putin just needs to be removed from the helm.
      - rurban 5y ago
        Russia deserves better than racist Navalny

maybelsyrup 5y ago

> Nobody wants World War 3. Small point but this isn't exactly true, especially among US policymakers and media people. All you need to do here is read the chorus of people in official / corporate media going "nuclear war would be bad, but [...]". You can also rewind to the enormous shit-fit Washington types threw last summer when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, or go even further back to the Iraq war. Washington is full of chickenhawk warmongers dying to send other people's children into battle, consequences be damned. It's the rare thing that is really bipartisan, too. A lot of people's careers depend on support for World War III, so they find a way to be okay with it.

foxfluff 5y ago
There's also people who see it this way: world war 2 ended Hitler, world war 3 may be needed to end Putler. A war might be the only way to take out a genocidal dictator-terrorist who threatens the entire world with nukes.
- maybelsyrup 5y ago
  Yes right, this is what I mean by "they find a way to be okay with it." Well-meaning and high-minded establishment types like Tom Friedman or Jeffrey Goldberg or David Frum wouldn't let themselves indulge in outright bloodlust; that would be too crass, too icky, and too honest. So they concoct little children's tales like "WW3 may be needed to end Putler" to rationalize it. This is an ego defense: a mechanism to protect against the anxiety of seeing yourself as something horrible (seeing yourself honestly, in this case).
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Independently of whether it's a rationalisation or not, it might be the actual reality of the situation. Maybe WW3 actually _is_ needed to unseat him (though I hope it's not).
    - wilkommen 5y ago
      Well if that’s true then we just shouldn’t try to unseat him.

tsol 5y ago

BossingAround 5y ago
> I don't support Russia, but I can see why they want Ukraine, a country that is in their borders, to stay in their orbit. This is a complete red herring. They don't want Ukraine to "stay in their orbit," they are colonizers that are fighting against Ukraine's independence. Putin said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Nobody in NATO is eager to accept Ukraine. Ukraine said they'd stay independent. Now, Putin is saying that Ukraine is essentially Russian, and he's bringing up fake news about genocide and neonazi government. If you think that Putin will stop at Ukraine, you're sorely mistaken. It's Ukraine now, Georgia right after, and then we shall see. You do not negotiate with terrorists. We've tried. Ever since Crimea in 2014, the west has been in one large negotiation with Russia, and obviously, nothing worked. At this point, it's all-out everything except actual troops on ground, because it's obvious Putin won't stop unless he's stopped in some way.
- BbzzbB 5y ago
  I find it weird this idea that Putin was so scared of Ukraine joining NATO because he fears some NATO aggression. By now the most likely objective as far as I'm concerned is that conquering formerly soviet Ukraine has always been in his mind. I could be wrong as I'm not in his head, but to me this war wasn't avoidable by assuring Ukraine's neutrality as some pundits say, at best it was delaying the invasion to the time of his choosing, seemingly now.
  - throwaway_4ever 5y ago
    Yes, anyone believing Putin is scared of NATO offense (he just doesn't want NATO defense) has to reconcile the conflicting viewpoints that he's simultaneously scared of NATO attacking Russia but not worried about them just defending the invasion of a sovereign country, Ukraine...
- aszantu 5y ago
  Looks like merica does negotiate with Neonazis though https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine https://www.stpete4peace.org/Ukraine

skybrian 5y ago

Although it supports the Ukrainians and that’s important, I don’t see how sanctions reduce the likelihood of wider war? It is, in its way, an escalation, though a safer one than directly entering the conflict. It seems Putin sprung this on the rest of Russia as a surprise decision. (Of course the signs were there.) Did he bother to get the support of the oligarchs or anyone else first? It’s not at all clear he has anyone’s support; he just has their obedience. Morally speaking, this looks rather simple: it’s Putin’s big mistake. To the extent that others failed to stop the invasion, it was by failing to influence him. But a paranoid and isolated dictator isn’t easily influenced. Punishing other Russians for this, particularly outside Russia and Ukraine, often has no purpose and is a form of cruelty.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Although it supports the Ukrainians and that’s important, I don’t see how sanctions reduce the likelihood of wider war? By reducing the capacity for wider war. I think this summarizes it, without a focus on war capacity specifically, but the impact on war capacity flows directly from this: https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1499157917399977987 https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1499157917399...
branko_d 5y ago
Lifting sanctions can becime a powerful motivator in any future negotiations.
bigfudge 5y ago
Let’s be clear. The Russians being punished outside of Russia have blood on their hands. They should never have been allowed to buy property and football clubs in the uk, because they weee gangster crooks who had stolen from their own country. That the uk govt was complicit in this at the time doesn’t make it wrong to act against them now. I have a lot more sympathy for the people hurt in Russsia now. Russians, whether they have been brainwashed into supporting Putin or not, are in for a bad time in the coming years.
- skybrian 5y ago

Animats 5y ago

> Nobody wants World War 3. ... the alternative, full-blown war across Europe and the potential for nuclear bombs being used is unfathomably worse for everyone both inside Russia and outside. We may get it by mistake. A wider war in Europe is all too likely. The NATO countries and the EU are shipping large amounts of military supplies into Ukraine. One story mentions 17 US widebody cargo aircraft per day going into Poland. This is a real threat to Russia's attacks, because the supplies include the good anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons. That leaves the Russian army fighting as infantry against a much larger armed population, a long, bloody slog. Unless Russia can cut off outside supplies, there's no path to victory. It's all too likely that some attempt to attack Ukranian supply lines will reach over the border into a NATO country. Just some Russian pilot in Ukraine in a fight making a turn too slowly could result in overflying Polish territory. Where the air defenses are ready to shoot down anything hostile. Re-read how WWI started. Everybody had mutual-defense treaties, and one minor event set it all off. 2 hours ago: "Putin says sanctions introduced on Russia are equal to a "declaration of war"" - CNN.

leshow 5y ago
> Russian President Vladimir Putin has described sanctions imposed by Western nations over his invasion of Ukraine as "akin to a declaration of war". > "But thank God it has not come to that," he added. The bit he added at the end is important.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I don't think you'll hear in real time how close we probably already came, but maybe after all the dust has settled there might be some stories along those lines. For now, we are on a knife edge, and the number of refugees is mounting steadily. I expect we'll be in the millions by the end of next week.