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I'm being totally serious about this: as a first generation American, 9/11 caused me to rethink what this country was doing abroad. Obviously the loss of life

by th-2022-03 5y ago

I'm being totally serious about this: as a first generation American, 9/11 caused me to rethink what this country was doing abroad. Obviously the loss of life was terrible. People in my town died in the Twin Towers. But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. Not to mention trading Oil with corrupt Arab leaders who hold their countries hostage. There is not an equivalence between the bad behvaior of the American and Russian state. I'd say Russians are worse in some ways, and Americans are worse in other ways -- largely because Americans are more powerful and influential. So I'm basically agreeing with your argument, although I don't think it's "fair" for the people to suffer (e.g. all the people who died in 9/11). However Americans also have to realize that we largely haven't faced any consequences as people, except a few outliers of terrorist attacks. (throwaway since I usually don't comment about politics)

SeanLuke 5y ago
> But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. The US has a free press, and its unfortunate history of overthrowing or supporting governments was and is well documented by the press and by historians in the United States. This documentation and publication resulted in many public scandals, lawsuits, and public intrigue, particularly through the 1960s to 1980s when the US's activities in this regard were perhaps that their peak. The resulting history is taught in universities and in elementary schools across the USA. Now, there are well-known political parties or other people with a vested interest in spinning things in their own way, as is the case in any country, but if you think the United States press is anything like the press in Russia, or that its public is anywhere as ignorant of the facts as the public in Russia and similar countries, or if you felt you were unaware of the US history in this regard while it was going on, then you perhaps led a sheltered life. But it wasn't for lack of trying on part of the US press.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Look at my shit, even if as smelly, it is better documented than yours. > I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. Dismissing every argument with whataboutism seems to be flavour of the day, even when it is not whataboutism.
  - SeanLuke 5y ago
    You're welcome to your own opinions, and your own blithe dismissals, but you are not welcome to your own facts. I lived during most of the period discussed by the GP. Everything from the Bay of Pigs to supporting the Shah to Iran Contra to the invasion of Grenada was well covered and well criticized in the US press. And the US invasion of Iraq was highly criticized in the US press even as the US government was facing an uphill battle to convince the world that it was proper by brandishing fake bottles of poison at the UN. The US has done a lot of bad stuff. But claiming that the press just went along with it is historical revisionism, full stop.
    - ignoramous 5y ago
      Having "free" Press does not absolve US of its crimes. That's even ignoring the fact that the Press itself is a propaganda tool for the US military-industrial complex, while steeping in biases of its own. You're welcome to live in your own bubble of facts.
      - bigfudge 5y ago
        There’s merit on both sides here. I think the key is that OP was making a personal Point about their own reflection. However well documented in academic texts or small newspapers thinking about how the US has meddled and more is not mainstream in the US, especially on the centre right. 911 did something similar for a number of my friends too - they started looking at some of that history in more detail, and it became important in their decision making.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Etherlord87 5y ago
In psychology, there's a mechanism that tells us to look for extraordinary causes for extraordinary events. And I don't mean here something seemingly supernatural - just something that affects you in a big way. For this reason some people, when they lose their loved ones, can't simply agree it was an accident and look for some kind of conspiracy, a bad actor, a murder. My point is, even those russians who know the situation well on the level of knowledge, could be emotionally detached and think that's just how the world works - but now that they see unprecedented response, it can sink in emotionally that their government has really done something terrible.

SeanLuke 5y ago

> But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. The US has a free press, and its unfortunate history of overthrowing or supporting governments was and is well documented by the press and by historians in the United States. This documentation and publication resulted in many public scandals, lawsuits, and public intrigue, particularly through the 1960s to 1980s when the US's activities in this regard were perhaps that their peak. The resulting history is taught in universities and in elementary schools across the USA. Now, there are well-known political parties or other people with a vested interest in spinning things in their own way, as is the case in any country, but if you think the United States press is anything like the press in Russia, or that its public is anywhere as ignorant of the facts as the public in Russia and similar countries, or if you felt you were unaware of the US history in this regard while it was going on, then you perhaps led a sheltered life. But it wasn't for lack of trying on part of the US press.

ignoramous 5y ago
Look at my shit, even if as smelly, it is better documented than yours. > I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. Dismissing every argument with whataboutism seems to be flavour of the day, even when it is not whataboutism.
- SeanLuke 5y ago
  You're welcome to your own opinions, and your own blithe dismissals, but you are not welcome to your own facts. I lived during most of the period discussed by the GP. Everything from the Bay of Pigs to supporting the Shah to Iran Contra to the invasion of Grenada was well covered and well criticized in the US press. And the US invasion of Iraq was highly criticized in the US press even as the US government was facing an uphill battle to convince the world that it was proper by brandishing fake bottles of poison at the UN. The US has done a lot of bad stuff. But claiming that the press just went along with it is historical revisionism, full stop.
  - ignoramous 5y ago
    Having "free" Press does not absolve US of its crimes. That's even ignoring the fact that the Press itself is a propaganda tool for the US military-industrial complex, while steeping in biases of its own. You're welcome to live in your own bubble of facts.
    - bigfudge 5y ago
      There’s merit on both sides here. I think the key is that OP was making a personal Point about their own reflection. However well documented in academic texts or small newspapers thinking about how the US has meddled and more is not mainstream in the US, especially on the centre right. 911 did something similar for a number of my friends too - they started looking at some of that history in more detail, and it became important in their decision making.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Etherlord87 5y ago

In psychology, there's a mechanism that tells us to look for extraordinary causes for extraordinary events. And I don't mean here something seemingly supernatural - just something that affects you in a big way. For this reason some people, when they lose their loved ones, can't simply agree it was an accident and look for some kind of conspiracy, a bad actor, a murder. My point is, even those russians who know the situation well on the level of knowledge, could be emotionally detached and think that's just how the world works - but now that they see unprecedented response, it can sink in emotionally that their government has really done something terrible.