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>Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin. And

>Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin. And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice. Why should Russians? As another poster said, even autocracies need a certain level of support to operate. It's not fair to punish Russians but their country is literally waging a full scale war while threatening the west with nukes. They can stop it. Or we can all wait until Kyiv looks like Grozny, millions have died and we're sacrificing the Baltic states to "prevent nuclear war"...

asats 5y ago
Right, if you were in power people fleeing over the berlin wall would have been shot from both sides, not just by the soviets. Cause they should have stayed inside and overthrown the soviet government. Same goes for north koreans, shoot them and send them back, let them fight the government.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  The Soviet Union was ended from within... Thanks for proving my point.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    And the people who wanted to flee, played their part in it. It is bad for the morale, if you have to shoot your people for wanting to leave. And they did get shot - but not from the other side, too. They were welcomed once they made it. And still it worked.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - asats 5y ago
    The only reason it didn't fall sooner is because you didn't shoot enough fleeing refugees. Got it.
- Etherlord87 5y ago
  ^ the above is a nice example of a strawman[1]. Obviously putting sanctions on citizens of an invading country is very far from shooting them, and yet asats decided to portray his debater as a leader who would murder other people, because perhaps it's too exhausting for him to have an actual, substantive conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
  - asats 5y ago
    The argument was not about the imposition of sanctions on the citizens but about punishing the mostly anti-government people that are currently fleeing the country. Also my debater accepted the argument and wrapped himself in that straw.
lolinder 5y ago
Every Russian who leaves is a Russian who won't get conscripted, who will pay no more taxes to Putin. They know what's going on on the inside and can share with the rest of us so we can make informed decisions. And aside from all of that, they no longer have to fear for their lives if they oppose the regime. From both a humanitarian and a strategic perspective, embracing Russian defectors is the very most important thing that we can be doing right now that we aren't already doing. The only reason not to do so is hate.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > From both a humanitarian and a strategic perspective, embracing Russian defectors is the very most important thing that we can be doing right now that we aren't already doing. The only reason not to do so is hate. No, the most humanitarian thing to do is end a war in which civilians are actually being killed. Not embracing those who supported Putin get to this point but suddenly flee when they're personally inconvenienced.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    How does persecuting Russians who flee Putin's regime help end the war sooner?
    - ericmay 5y ago
      To make it fair why not have them renounce citizenship and publicly disavow Putin or something? State their full name, former address, etc. Just to make sure they don’t support Putin and never have.
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        I think many would, if they can find a state who gives them papers instead. Being stateless is no fun.
        ericmay 5y ago
croes 5y ago
Wrong question. If Russians have a choice, why not Ukrainians? People who don't wont to fight are bad as soldiers so why force them?
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > Wrong question. If Russians have a choice, why not Ukrainians? Ask the Russians who are bombing them and preventing them from leaving. Russia has already broken the cease-fire meant to evacuate civilians. Or ask the Russians who started the war. Ask the Russians carrying out their leadership's orders. Russians are the ones taking away Ukrainians' choices.
  - croes 5y ago
    Their government prevents them leaving too if they are male. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-invasion-ukraine-bans-male-citizens-leaving/6936471001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-i... And that people on the outside are helpful was proven in World War II were many germans fled.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      > And that people on the outside are helpful was proven in World War II were many germans fled. Ah yes so effective. Only 40 million killed.
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        So you would have been in favor of punishing german jews (like Einstein) for leaving nazi germany? They were german citiciens after all, so they were all 100% responsible for the war and holocaust? It is a complex world and oversimplifying solutions rarely help.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    > Russia has already broken the cease-fire meant to evacuate civilians. Russians are claiming the contrary. https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395
hutzlibu 5y ago
"No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin." It does not, as only a very tiny fraction of those who want to get out, can actually get out. And some choose to stay because of family, buisness, whatever. But those who left will be the reminder of the status quo for everyone - especially if it was the well educated who left. "And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice." But this is the choice of the ukrainian government. I am against mandatory conscripting and would not accept to be force drafted myself. And I would not want to fight next to people who might flee any second. "They can stop it." And have you stopped the iraq war? Or closed guantanamo? Or stopped the war in yemen? Why not? Or are you in support of them?
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Russia declared a cease-fire to evacuate civilians but has already broken it. > And have you stopped the iraq war? Or closed guantanamo? Or stopped the war in yemen? I'm not American. Ask a yank. > But this is the choice of the ukrainian government. I am against mandatory conscripting and would not accept to be force drafted myself. And I would not want to fight next to people who might flee any second. Ask a woman who's been raped why she wore a short skirt... You should be asking why Russia is killing civilians, not why Ukrainians are defending them.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    So which state are you from? I know only of a very few, with their hands mostly clean. But you get the point, that your possibilities as an individual (with maybe responsibilities for a family) are quite limited to stop the actions of a whole state? And like I said, leaving the state is very effective protesting. No more state support anymore from that person, but one more who had enough. That gives the remaining something to think.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    > Russia declared a cease-fire to evacuate civilians but has already broken it. Any support this is actually the case besides "the ukranian officials said ... "? https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395
croes 5y ago
The Nazis were stopped from outside and the USSR by people from it's government because of it's economic downfall.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > The Nazis were stopped from outside Yes, after killing 30 million+ people. It would have been much easier if Germans didn't enable them or someone took out Hitler in 1938. And we punished Germany for generations because of it. The US still has military bases there to this day.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    Germany has been fully sovereign since 1991; they can ask the US troops to leave whenever they want to. The existence of US basis there now can hardly be considered “punishment”.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Ah well, we do have quite some Reichsbürger (think QAnon people) who indeed say, germany is still occupied. But after Trump made the actual decision to pull out all US troops, there was rather lots of whining, because the military bases are important for the local economies ..
    - abnry 5y ago
      I looked it up and the ratio of German soldiers to US soldiers is about 2:1 in Germany. Pretty remarkable when you think about. They are kind of outsourcing their military to the US. And that's a choice the Germans made, and are starting to reverse.
  - Etherlord87 5y ago
    > And we punished Germany for generations because of it. Poland, who fought Germany with the biggest % casualties, ended up in a much worse state than Germany, because of russian occupation in the form of communism (Germany had a healthy part to take over after USSR collapsed) and no participation in the marshal plan. So I have doubts if we can speak about Germany being punished for generations.

asats 5y ago

Right, if you were in power people fleeing over the berlin wall would have been shot from both sides, not just by the soviets. Cause they should have stayed inside and overthrown the soviet government. Same goes for north koreans, shoot them and send them back, let them fight the government.

Mikeb85 5y ago
The Soviet Union was ended from within... Thanks for proving my point.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  And the people who wanted to flee, played their part in it. It is bad for the morale, if you have to shoot your people for wanting to leave. And they did get shot - but not from the other side, too. They were welcomed once they made it. And still it worked.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- asats 5y ago
  The only reason it didn't fall sooner is because you didn't shoot enough fleeing refugees. Got it.
Etherlord87 5y ago
^ the above is a nice example of a strawman[1]. Obviously putting sanctions on citizens of an invading country is very far from shooting them, and yet asats decided to portray his debater as a leader who would murder other people, because perhaps it's too exhausting for him to have an actual, substantive conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
- asats 5y ago
  The argument was not about the imposition of sanctions on the citizens but about punishing the mostly anti-government people that are currently fleeing the country. Also my debater accepted the argument and wrapped himself in that straw.

lolinder 5y ago

Every Russian who leaves is a Russian who won't get conscripted, who will pay no more taxes to Putin. They know what's going on on the inside and can share with the rest of us so we can make informed decisions. And aside from all of that, they no longer have to fear for their lives if they oppose the regime. From both a humanitarian and a strategic perspective, embracing Russian defectors is the very most important thing that we can be doing right now that we aren't already doing. The only reason not to do so is hate.

Mikeb85 5y ago
> From both a humanitarian and a strategic perspective, embracing Russian defectors is the very most important thing that we can be doing right now that we aren't already doing. The only reason not to do so is hate. No, the most humanitarian thing to do is end a war in which civilians are actually being killed. Not embracing those who supported Putin get to this point but suddenly flee when they're personally inconvenienced.
- lolinder 5y ago
  How does persecuting Russians who flee Putin's regime help end the war sooner?
  - ericmay 5y ago
    To make it fair why not have them renounce citizenship and publicly disavow Putin or something? State their full name, former address, etc. Just to make sure they don’t support Putin and never have.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      I think many would, if they can find a state who gives them papers instead. Being stateless is no fun.
      - ericmay 5y ago

croes 5y ago

Wrong question. If Russians have a choice, why not Ukrainians? People who don't wont to fight are bad as soldiers so why force them?

Mikeb85 5y ago
> Wrong question. If Russians have a choice, why not Ukrainians? Ask the Russians who are bombing them and preventing them from leaving. Russia has already broken the cease-fire meant to evacuate civilians. Or ask the Russians who started the war. Ask the Russians carrying out their leadership's orders. Russians are the ones taking away Ukrainians' choices.
- croes 5y ago
  Their government prevents them leaving too if they are male. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-invasion-ukraine-bans-male-citizens-leaving/6936471001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-i... And that people on the outside are helpful was proven in World War II were many germans fled.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    > And that people on the outside are helpful was proven in World War II were many germans fled. Ah yes so effective. Only 40 million killed.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      So you would have been in favor of punishing german jews (like Einstein) for leaving nazi germany? They were german citiciens after all, so they were all 100% responsible for the war and holocaust? It is a complex world and oversimplifying solutions rarely help.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  > Russia has already broken the cease-fire meant to evacuate civilians. Russians are claiming the contrary. https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395

hutzlibu 5y ago

"No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin." It does not, as only a very tiny fraction of those who want to get out, can actually get out. And some choose to stay because of family, buisness, whatever. But those who left will be the reminder of the status quo for everyone - especially if it was the well educated who left. "And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice." But this is the choice of the ukrainian government. I am against mandatory conscripting and would not accept to be force drafted myself. And I would not want to fight next to people who might flee any second. "They can stop it." And have you stopped the iraq war? Or closed guantanamo? Or stopped the war in yemen? Why not? Or are you in support of them?

Mikeb85 5y ago
Russia declared a cease-fire to evacuate civilians but has already broken it. > And have you stopped the iraq war? Or closed guantanamo? Or stopped the war in yemen? I'm not American. Ask a yank. > But this is the choice of the ukrainian government. I am against mandatory conscripting and would not accept to be force drafted myself. And I would not want to fight next to people who might flee any second. Ask a woman who's been raped why she wore a short skirt... You should be asking why Russia is killing civilians, not why Ukrainians are defending them.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  So which state are you from? I know only of a very few, with their hands mostly clean. But you get the point, that your possibilities as an individual (with maybe responsibilities for a family) are quite limited to stop the actions of a whole state? And like I said, leaving the state is very effective protesting. No more state support anymore from that person, but one more who had enough. That gives the remaining something to think.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  > Russia declared a cease-fire to evacuate civilians but has already broken it. Any support this is actually the case besides "the ukranian officials said ... "? https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395

croes 5y ago

The Nazis were stopped from outside and the USSR by people from it's government because of it's economic downfall.

Mikeb85 5y ago
> The Nazis were stopped from outside Yes, after killing 30 million+ people. It would have been much easier if Germans didn't enable them or someone took out Hitler in 1938. And we punished Germany for generations because of it. The US still has military bases there to this day.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Germany has been fully sovereign since 1991; they can ask the US troops to leave whenever they want to. The existence of US basis there now can hardly be considered “punishment”.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Ah well, we do have quite some Reichsbürger (think QAnon people) who indeed say, germany is still occupied. But after Trump made the actual decision to pull out all US troops, there was rather lots of whining, because the military bases are important for the local economies ..
  - abnry 5y ago
    I looked it up and the ratio of German soldiers to US soldiers is about 2:1 in Germany. Pretty remarkable when you think about. They are kind of outsourcing their military to the US. And that's a choice the Germans made, and are starting to reverse.
- Etherlord87 5y ago
  > And we punished Germany for generations because of it. Poland, who fought Germany with the biggest % casualties, ended up in a much worse state than Germany, because of russian occupation in the form of communism (Germany had a healthy part to take over after USSR collapsed) and no participation in the marshal plan. So I have doubts if we can speak about Germany being punished for generations.