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This just seems completely backwards. We lament every time a country in crisis/civil war blocks Internet for its citizens: Sudan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso, Yeme

by remram 5y ago

This just seems completely backwards. We lament every time a country in crisis/civil war blocks Internet for its citizens: Sudan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso, Yemen, ... and then we cut Russia from the Internet on our side [1] If the point of sanctions is to get the local population to rise and make it difficult for the government to keep its course, why cut out their access to independent news that would let them know what to protest? That will leave them with only state-controlled news. And now they can't submit that to Reddit to discuss it? I get that Reddit don't want to be left out of the PR bandwagon, and as a link aggregator all they can do is block links. But this doesn't feel like helping. [1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/internet-service-provider-cogent-cutting-off-access-to-russian-customers/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/internet-service-provider-coge...

WillPostForFood 5y ago
>and then we cut Russia from the Internet on our side This isn’t a good example of cutting Russia from the internet - Reddit is allowing Russians access to Reddit, and they can post on Reddit, they are just blocking links to Russian sites. That’s perhaps I’ll advised, and too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation, but it is not cutting Russian citizens off.
- netcan 5y ago
  I disagree. "Cutting off" means all sorts of things. Blocking russian sites from being posted is a form of cutting off. "Too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation" is, IMO, bordering on euphemism. The increasingly enthusiastic swinging of blunt weapons has already made a terrible mess. Once the war misinformation game matures to where the Trump election or covid misinformation game has already matured to... This week Youtube shut down an actual news channel that aired a Trump election statements in the process of reporting on it. Airing pro-regime Russian media will likely be next, in some fashion. Yesterday, I caught up with a Russian friend of mine. He had complex views Ukraine, Putin & such two weeks ago. His views are no longer complex. He's squarely anti-Putin, anti-regime and considers Zelenski and the Ukrainian fighters heroic with no caveats. Obviously, the invasion itself played a part forming his current views. But... the shuttering of nearly all free media outlets cinched it. Now that dissident opinions are literally illegal in Russia again, he's literally supporting the opposite side in a war. This man is a lifelong nationalist. This fearful attitude towards misinformation is dangerous, far more dangerous than misinformation in my opinion. That does not mean misinformation is not real, not a problem or not something that needs action. It does mean that this is a bad decision by Reddit.
ehsankia 5y ago
Being blocked from sharing Russian-owned content is absolutely nothing like being cut off from the internet or information. At best it's limiting the spread of Russian-owned content. I'm not sure why HN comments are so quick to make these extreme fear-mongering comparisons. Just yesterday I saw a top comment comparing Youtube removing a video to Chinese censorship...
- unicornporn 5y ago
  Exactly. If every Russian can see what an inconvenience it is to have Putin as a leader the hope is that they will be more inclined to do everything in their power to have him replaced. Some will of course just blame "west", but there will also be those who will come to question power.
  - root_axis 5y ago
    It certainly applies political pressure with respect to the current war, but it seems absurd to suggest that Russian citizens will replace Putin because of inconveniences on the internet.
    - unicornporn 5y ago
      It's not just "the internet" (and I think you get that). The point is that these inconveniences penetrate every aspect of your daily life.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    Putin is just another US led Egyptian uprising. I wonder if this (\u202E) would work for Russians, anyone tried? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30351968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30351968
  - OrlandoHakim 5y ago
    Or, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, these actions could further radicalize an entire population. I think it is safe to assume that if the west applies broad and indiscriminate sanctions that devastate the lives of everyday Russians, many/most are more likely to blame the west who directly imposed the sanctions rather than their own government who will very likely use propaganda to convince them to hate their western oppressors. It is similar, in my opinion, to the broader Islamic radicalization that occurred after 9/11 when the US employed extraordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques rather indiscriminately on both known terrorists and suspects captured without charge or due process/fair-trial. Have you considered the risk that these actions could strengthen Putin’s grip on power and provide justification to the Russian people to escalate conflict further? I gleaned this hypothesis From a recent Joe Rohan Podcast episode with Maajid Awaz, a former Islamic radical, who turned away from radical Islam and helped educate western leaders how to de-radicalize extremists after 9/11. [0] [0] https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ugbn7cuab3mNgKbo81ajM?si=N8Lq1m72Q7uyqYj0hH2NRg https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ugbn7cuab3mNgKbo81ajM?si=N...
xdennis 5y ago
You can't have free speech during a war. There's no point in getting the local population to rise up because the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin fascists. Even western poll show that they're pro-Putin. The point is to quarantine Russia so that it doesn't infect us.
- fairity 5y ago
  > the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin Source? The latest western polls show his approval rating in the high 60s but you have to significantly discount that bc 1) the perceived danger of speaking out against the govt skews responses towards approval 2) those polls were done before the Ukrainian crisis
- sterlind 5y ago
  have you like, actually talked to Russians? I have a number of ethnic Russian friends and I've been active on some Russian-language discords/subreddits. the ones I've talked to are aghast at this and blaming themselves for staying out of politics up until now. there's selection bias since I'm finding Russians who are on Western social media platforms, but still, I don't think you can claim the "vast majority" are like this.
root_axis 5y ago
> I get that Reddit don't want to be left out of the PR bandwagon This is not good PR for reddit, whenever they make decisions like this the entire site erupts in revolt for a week or two. More likely, reddit thinks this is a good idea because it will reduce the spread of what the administrator's conider Russian disinformation. Acting to limit the spread of Russian disinformation has been a major effort for all the big social media sites since 2016, and this change seems inline with that pattern, just taken to an extreme that reflects the current extreme situation with Russia.

by remram 5y ago

WillPostForFood 5y ago

>and then we cut Russia from the Internet on our side This isn’t a good example of cutting Russia from the internet - Reddit is allowing Russians access to Reddit, and they can post on Reddit, they are just blocking links to Russian sites. That’s perhaps I’ll advised, and too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation, but it is not cutting Russian citizens off.

netcan 5y ago
I disagree. "Cutting off" means all sorts of things. Blocking russian sites from being posted is a form of cutting off. "Too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation" is, IMO, bordering on euphemism. The increasingly enthusiastic swinging of blunt weapons has already made a terrible mess. Once the war misinformation game matures to where the Trump election or covid misinformation game has already matured to... This week Youtube shut down an actual news channel that aired a Trump election statements in the process of reporting on it. Airing pro-regime Russian media will likely be next, in some fashion. Yesterday, I caught up with a Russian friend of mine. He had complex views Ukraine, Putin & such two weeks ago. His views are no longer complex. He's squarely anti-Putin, anti-regime and considers Zelenski and the Ukrainian fighters heroic with no caveats. Obviously, the invasion itself played a part forming his current views. But... the shuttering of nearly all free media outlets cinched it. Now that dissident opinions are literally illegal in Russia again, he's literally supporting the opposite side in a war. This man is a lifelong nationalist. This fearful attitude towards misinformation is dangerous, far more dangerous than misinformation in my opinion. That does not mean misinformation is not real, not a problem or not something that needs action. It does mean that this is a bad decision by Reddit.

ehsankia 5y ago

Being blocked from sharing Russian-owned content is absolutely nothing like being cut off from the internet or information. At best it's limiting the spread of Russian-owned content. I'm not sure why HN comments are so quick to make these extreme fear-mongering comparisons. Just yesterday I saw a top comment comparing Youtube removing a video to Chinese censorship...

unicornporn 5y ago
Exactly. If every Russian can see what an inconvenience it is to have Putin as a leader the hope is that they will be more inclined to do everything in their power to have him replaced. Some will of course just blame "west", but there will also be those who will come to question power.
- root_axis 5y ago
  It certainly applies political pressure with respect to the current war, but it seems absurd to suggest that Russian citizens will replace Putin because of inconveniences on the internet.
  - unicornporn 5y ago
    It's not just "the internet" (and I think you get that). The point is that these inconveniences penetrate every aspect of your daily life.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  Putin is just another US led Egyptian uprising. I wonder if this (\u202E) would work for Russians, anyone tried? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30351968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30351968
- OrlandoHakim 5y ago
  Or, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, these actions could further radicalize an entire population. I think it is safe to assume that if the west applies broad and indiscriminate sanctions that devastate the lives of everyday Russians, many/most are more likely to blame the west who directly imposed the sanctions rather than their own government who will very likely use propaganda to convince them to hate their western oppressors. It is similar, in my opinion, to the broader Islamic radicalization that occurred after 9/11 when the US employed extraordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques rather indiscriminately on both known terrorists and suspects captured without charge or due process/fair-trial. Have you considered the risk that these actions could strengthen Putin’s grip on power and provide justification to the Russian people to escalate conflict further? I gleaned this hypothesis From a recent Joe Rohan Podcast episode with Maajid Awaz, a former Islamic radical, who turned away from radical Islam and helped educate western leaders how to de-radicalize extremists after 9/11. [0] [0] https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ugbn7cuab3mNgKbo81ajM?si=N8Lq1m72Q7uyqYj0hH2NRg https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ugbn7cuab3mNgKbo81ajM?si=N...

xdennis 5y ago

You can't have free speech during a war. There's no point in getting the local population to rise up because the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin fascists. Even western poll show that they're pro-Putin. The point is to quarantine Russia so that it doesn't infect us.

fairity 5y ago
> the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin Source? The latest western polls show his approval rating in the high 60s but you have to significantly discount that bc 1) the perceived danger of speaking out against the govt skews responses towards approval 2) those polls were done before the Ukrainian crisis
sterlind 5y ago
have you like, actually talked to Russians? I have a number of ethnic Russian friends and I've been active on some Russian-language discords/subreddits. the ones I've talked to are aghast at this and blaming themselves for staying out of politics up until now. there's selection bias since I'm finding Russians who are on Western social media platforms, but still, I don't think you can claim the "vast majority" are like this.

root_axis 5y ago

> I get that Reddit don't want to be left out of the PR bandwagon This is not good PR for reddit, whenever they make decisions like this the entire site erupts in revolt for a week or two. More likely, reddit thinks this is a good idea because it will reduce the spread of what the administrator's conider Russian disinformation. Acting to limit the spread of Russian disinformation has been a major effort for all the big social media sites since 2016, and this change seems inline with that pattern, just taken to an extreme that reflects the current extreme situation with Russia.