6 ms·

Americans about US wars: 'we cannot do anything about our government - they engage in wars and we couldn't stop them if we tried' Americans about Russian wars:

Americans about US wars: 'we cannot do anything about our government - they engage in wars and we couldn't stop them if we tried' Americans about Russian wars: 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'

nerkicacy 5y ago
Americans can change government during election every few years if they don't like it. Russians can't. That's why the only way is 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'.
- akrymski 5y ago
  Except you get 3-15 years in jail for protesting in Russia.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    There are only so many jails, temporary detention facilities, and judges to give the verdicts.
    - akrymski 5y ago
      Tell that to Stalin
      - lostmsu 5y ago
        In his times there were no easy ways to organize masses of people due to lack of efficient decentralized means of communication.
        akrymski 5y ago
        Social media is mostly banned. Posting anything online against the war is a 15 year jail sentence.
        lostmsu 5y ago
        You have a solution to this problem 2 posts up in the chain.
  - nerkicacy 5y ago
    You could get shot in the head during Euromaidan[1] demonstrations in Ukraine (2013-2014). And they were able to remove Viktor Yanukovych from office. Many other countries escaped from Russian influance thanks to mass demonstration (Poland, East Germany, ex USSR nations). It is not easy, but there is not other way. Only Russian can dethrone Putin, no one else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
    - akrymski 5y ago
      Yanukovich had far less support and had opposition. Ukraine's military presence was a fraction of Russia's. Already more Russians have been arrested in protests so far this week than in Maidan, but unless millions rise up it's impossible to remove Putin. When you shoot at a king and you miss you only solidify his position. Furthermore Maidan had assistance from the US. No such thing exists in Russia.
  - risyachka 5y ago
    Go watch how people go with bare hands to protest russian forces literally this minute. And yes, they don't risk 3-15 years of jail. They have hundreds of times higher chance to die. But they don't use it as an excuse.
    - akrymski 5y ago
      There is a very small number of protesters. We'd need a million people to rise up in Moscow alone to make a difference. Putin has too much support among his voters atm. And the iron curtain only solidifies his propaganda machine.
      - risyachka 5y ago
        >> There is a very small number of protesters. You sure? Or just speculate to support your point?
        akrymski 5y ago
        I follow russian anti-war channels where people share videos of protestors. Numbers are very small I'm afraid (more cops than protestors).
        risyachka 5y ago
        You should join some groups in viber/telegram of people that actually live there, and see for yourself. The only small numbers are russian army that wants to take a 44 mil country with weapons, cities, etc by their demotivated 150k troops that don't have the slightest clue how to fight.
        akrymski 5y ago
        I'm Russian and yes I am a member of the telegram groups you mention.
b112 5y ago
When was the last time the US invaded, with an intent to never, ever leave? When was the last time the US invaded, and slaughtered civilians, on purpose, just to spread terror. Not by accident, or a rogue element, but purposefully. When was the last time the US jailed, not by a mistake in justice but on purpose, all who dared speak out about her actions? And killed them when possible? Many reading the above will say "But this one time...", yet that is the point. It is an aberration for such things in the US, not the norm. Not the standard. Russia is not even remotely the same. It is a dictatorship, lead by a single, non-elected, blood thirsty, malicious murderer. The whataboutisms are so weak, and paper thin here, it is absurd.
- samstave 5y ago
- yetihehe 5y ago
  > When was the last time the US invaded, with an intent to never, ever leave? When was the last time the US invaded, and slaughtered civilians, on purpose, just to spread terror. I'm against war in Ukraine and against Russian dictators, but Putin doesn't want to never leave, he wants to install pro-russian government, like USA does in attacked countries. But yes, we didn't hear about slaughtering civilians in our west-centric media, only from those russian propagandists like Assange and Snowden. > When was the last time the US jailed, not by a mistake in justice but on purpose, all who dared speak out about her actions? And killed them when possible? Like with Snowden, Assange and journalists involved in panama papers or Epstein case (who hanged himself in constantly observed cell)? What is different from my perspective about Russia: USA is still one of the best economies in the world, still have democratic rulers where you can change them and wants other countries to become like it (which means better than their current state). Russia just wants other countries to work for Russian might. We had anecdote in Poland, that USSR is not that bad, because it takes coal from us for free, but in exchange we build ships for them for free. So, while many Poles would not really fight that much if USA wanted to take over the country, we would (and do alredy in Ukraine) oppose Russia with all we have.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
torbTurret 5y ago
Americans weren’t the first to do sanctions though? Not even close. In fact, EU countries were asking America to, and are still asking for more.
ledauphin 5y ago
this is a silly caricature. historically, a majority of Americans supported both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq when they started, and public opinion did not turn against them for several years, and even then it was not an overwhelming majority. Obama campaigned on the folly of those wars but chose to stay involved because it was believed by many that some level of success could yet be achieved for the people in those countries, who were in many cases partnering with the US. Nevertheless, the eventual unpopularity of those wars did in fact lead to "regime change" in the US, because the US is a (somewhat) functioning democracy. Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  While Obama was talking out of one side of his mouth regarding tire Iraq, he was starting a bombing campaign in Syria and Libya with the other
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  > Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine. The US getting more directly involved in Ukraine was never a likely outcome, for reasons that have nothing to do with American public opinion. Throughout the Cold War, both the USA and the USSR made a policy of never directly engaging in conflict on the same soil, because the risk of it escalating into a nuclear war was just too great. Instead, they would fight proxy wars where at most one country was a direct combatant, and the other country merely provided material support to an ally. We can expect the war in Ukraine to continue following the same playbook, and for the same reason. And other NATO countries will also avoid sending their own troops into Ukraine for fear of creating a slippery slope that pulls NATO's nuclear powers into the war.
  - ledauphin 5y ago
    this is all very true, but does not negate what i said. the American public does not want to risk nuclear war.

nerkicacy 5y ago

Americans can change government during election every few years if they don't like it. Russians can't. That's why the only way is 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'.

akrymski 5y ago
Except you get 3-15 years in jail for protesting in Russia.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  There are only so many jails, temporary detention facilities, and judges to give the verdicts.
  - akrymski 5y ago
    Tell that to Stalin
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      In his times there were no easy ways to organize masses of people due to lack of efficient decentralized means of communication.
      - akrymski 5y ago
        Social media is mostly banned. Posting anything online against the war is a 15 year jail sentence.
        lostmsu 5y ago
        You have a solution to this problem 2 posts up in the chain.
- nerkicacy 5y ago
  You could get shot in the head during Euromaidan[1] demonstrations in Ukraine (2013-2014). And they were able to remove Viktor Yanukovych from office. Many other countries escaped from Russian influance thanks to mass demonstration (Poland, East Germany, ex USSR nations). It is not easy, but there is not other way. Only Russian can dethrone Putin, no one else. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
  - akrymski 5y ago
    Yanukovich had far less support and had opposition. Ukraine's military presence was a fraction of Russia's. Already more Russians have been arrested in protests so far this week than in Maidan, but unless millions rise up it's impossible to remove Putin. When you shoot at a king and you miss you only solidify his position. Furthermore Maidan had assistance from the US. No such thing exists in Russia.
- risyachka 5y ago
  Go watch how people go with bare hands to protest russian forces literally this minute. And yes, they don't risk 3-15 years of jail. They have hundreds of times higher chance to die. But they don't use it as an excuse.
  - akrymski 5y ago
    There is a very small number of protesters. We'd need a million people to rise up in Moscow alone to make a difference. Putin has too much support among his voters atm. And the iron curtain only solidifies his propaganda machine.
    - risyachka 5y ago
      >> There is a very small number of protesters. You sure? Or just speculate to support your point?
      - akrymski 5y ago
        I follow russian anti-war channels where people share videos of protestors. Numbers are very small I'm afraid (more cops than protestors).
        risyachka 5y ago
        You should join some groups in viber/telegram of people that actually live there, and see for yourself. The only small numbers are russian army that wants to take a 44 mil country with weapons, cities, etc by their demotivated 150k troops that don't have the slightest clue how to fight.
        akrymski 5y ago
        I'm Russian and yes I am a member of the telegram groups you mention.

b112 5y ago

When was the last time the US invaded, with an intent to never, ever leave? When was the last time the US invaded, and slaughtered civilians, on purpose, just to spread terror. Not by accident, or a rogue element, but purposefully. When was the last time the US jailed, not by a mistake in justice but on purpose, all who dared speak out about her actions? And killed them when possible? Many reading the above will say "But this one time...", yet that is the point. It is an aberration for such things in the US, not the norm. Not the standard. Russia is not even remotely the same. It is a dictatorship, lead by a single, non-elected, blood thirsty, malicious murderer. The whataboutisms are so weak, and paper thin here, it is absurd.

samstave 5y ago
yetihehe 5y ago
> When was the last time the US invaded, with an intent to never, ever leave? When was the last time the US invaded, and slaughtered civilians, on purpose, just to spread terror. I'm against war in Ukraine and against Russian dictators, but Putin doesn't want to never leave, he wants to install pro-russian government, like USA does in attacked countries. But yes, we didn't hear about slaughtering civilians in our west-centric media, only from those russian propagandists like Assange and Snowden. > When was the last time the US jailed, not by a mistake in justice but on purpose, all who dared speak out about her actions? And killed them when possible? Like with Snowden, Assange and journalists involved in panama papers or Epstein case (who hanged himself in constantly observed cell)? What is different from my perspective about Russia: USA is still one of the best economies in the world, still have democratic rulers where you can change them and wants other countries to become like it (which means better than their current state). Russia just wants other countries to work for Russian might. We had anecdote in Poland, that USSR is not that bad, because it takes coal from us for free, but in exchange we build ships for them for free. So, while many Poles would not really fight that much if USA wanted to take over the country, we would (and do alredy in Ukraine) oppose Russia with all we have.
s1artibartfast 5y ago

torbTurret 5y ago

Americans weren’t the first to do sanctions though? Not even close. In fact, EU countries were asking America to, and are still asking for more.

ledauphin 5y ago

this is a silly caricature. historically, a majority of Americans supported both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq when they started, and public opinion did not turn against them for several years, and even then it was not an overwhelming majority. Obama campaigned on the folly of those wars but chose to stay involved because it was believed by many that some level of success could yet be achieved for the people in those countries, who were in many cases partnering with the US. Nevertheless, the eventual unpopularity of those wars did in fact lead to "regime change" in the US, because the US is a (somewhat) functioning democracy. Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
While Obama was talking out of one side of his mouth regarding tire Iraq, he was starting a bombing campaign in Syria and Libya with the other
mumblemumble 5y ago
> Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine. The US getting more directly involved in Ukraine was never a likely outcome, for reasons that have nothing to do with American public opinion. Throughout the Cold War, both the USA and the USSR made a policy of never directly engaging in conflict on the same soil, because the risk of it escalating into a nuclear war was just too great. Instead, they would fight proxy wars where at most one country was a direct combatant, and the other country merely provided material support to an ally. We can expect the war in Ukraine to continue following the same playbook, and for the same reason. And other NATO countries will also avoid sending their own troops into Ukraine for fear of creating a slippery slope that pulls NATO's nuclear powers into the war.
- ledauphin 5y ago
  this is all very true, but does not negate what i said. the American public does not want to risk nuclear war.