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I feel if XMPP just had some better tools this push for Matrix would be unnecessary.

GeckoEidechse 5y ago
https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp%3F https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matri...
- zaik 5y ago
  If you read https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/matthew/group-voip/proposals/3401-group-voip.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mat... it becomes apparent that the 'eventually consistent' part of Matrix is more of a hindrance in this case. Also 'the more federation and interoperability the better' is kind of contradictory to constantly reinventing extisting Internet Standards. I suspect VoIP over Matrix is not compatible with SIP or XMPP A/V calls and looking at current state of the matrix.org XMPP chat implementation they probably will never be.
zaik 5y ago
As of recently, Dino already can do video conferences based on XMPP and other clients are working on it as well. There is also a bidirectional SIP/XMPP bridge, so it integrates with other existing Internet Standards: https://sip.cheogram.com/ https://sip.cheogram.com/
kitkat_new 5y ago
please read the article (and linked MSC [0]) first and check out how this decentralized(!) conferencing proposal works. I don't think tools that implement this exist in the XMPP ecosystem at all. [0] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/matthew/group-voip/proposals/3401-group-voip.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mat...
pigeons 5y ago
Yeah, I read Matrix's reasoning for not just improving XMPP and instead starting a new protocol, and I gave them a few years, and have to use matrix quite a bit and am consistently convinced it was the wrong choice and XMPP is the way to go.
Gigachad 5y ago
If IRC had some better tools then the push for XMPP would be unnecessary. In fact, why didn't we just build IM on top of email? Turns out its much much easier to start from scratch with the right ideas than to transform an existing protocol in to something usable and convince everyone else and update all software to match. "The market" has decided that Matrix works well and XMPP doesn't. If it made sense to fix XMPP then someone would have done it and we would all be using that.
- SamWhited 5y ago
  I don't think this is true. Matrix is largely only used by the HN crowd and a handful of open source projects. It's a couple million users max, which in this case is tiny. XMPP is used in Jitsi and Zoom and various Google products (is Firebase still based on XMPP? I'm not actually sure about this one) and on your Nintendo Switch and probably still on Playstation, and in most of Cisco's video stuff which is used by every megacorp, etc.
- grey_earthling 5y ago
  Someone did build IM on top of email: https://delta.chat https://delta.chat

https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp%3F https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matri...

zaik 5y ago
If you read https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/matthew/group-voip/proposals/3401-group-voip.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mat... it becomes apparent that the 'eventually consistent' part of Matrix is more of a hindrance in this case. Also 'the more federation and interoperability the better' is kind of contradictory to constantly reinventing extisting Internet Standards. I suspect VoIP over Matrix is not compatible with SIP or XMPP A/V calls and looking at current state of the matrix.org XMPP chat implementation they probably will never be.

zaik 5y ago

As of recently, Dino already can do video conferences based on XMPP and other clients are working on it as well. There is also a bidirectional SIP/XMPP bridge, so it integrates with other existing Internet Standards: https://sip.cheogram.com/ https://sip.cheogram.com/

kitkat_new 5y ago

please read the article (and linked MSC [0]) first and check out how this decentralized(!) conferencing proposal works. I don't think tools that implement this exist in the XMPP ecosystem at all. [0] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/matthew/group-voip/proposals/3401-group-voip.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mat...

pigeons 5y ago

Yeah, I read Matrix's reasoning for not just improving XMPP and instead starting a new protocol, and I gave them a few years, and have to use matrix quite a bit and am consistently convinced it was the wrong choice and XMPP is the way to go.

Gigachad 5y ago

If IRC had some better tools then the push for XMPP would be unnecessary. In fact, why didn't we just build IM on top of email? Turns out its much much easier to start from scratch with the right ideas than to transform an existing protocol in to something usable and convince everyone else and update all software to match. "The market" has decided that Matrix works well and XMPP doesn't. If it made sense to fix XMPP then someone would have done it and we would all be using that.

SamWhited 5y ago
I don't think this is true. Matrix is largely only used by the HN crowd and a handful of open source projects. It's a couple million users max, which in this case is tiny. XMPP is used in Jitsi and Zoom and various Google products (is Firebase still based on XMPP? I'm not actually sure about this one) and on your Nintendo Switch and probably still on Playstation, and in most of Cisco's video stuff which is used by every megacorp, etc.
grey_earthling 5y ago
Someone did build IM on top of email: https://delta.chat https://delta.chat