4 ms·

Do you really expect this situation to ever change ? The communities are vastly different in their goals despite some minor overlap in their theoretical foundat

by dxbydt 5y ago

Do you really expect this situation to ever change ? The communities are vastly different in their goals despite some minor overlap in their theoretical foundations. Suppose you take rnorm(100) sample and find its variance. Then you ask the crowd the mean and variance of that sample variance. If your crowd is a 100 professional statisticians with a degree in Statistics, you should get the right answer atleast 90% of the time. If instead you have a 100 ML professionals with some sort of a degree in cs/vision/nlp, less than 10% would know how to go about computing the variance of sample variance, let alone what distribution that belongs to. The worst case is 100 self-taught Valley bros - not only will you get the wrong answer 100% of the time, they’ll pile on you for gatekeeping and computing useless statistical quantities by hand when you should be focused on the latest and greatest libraries in numpy that will magically do all these sorts of things if you invoke the right api. As a statistician, I feel quite sad. But classical stats has no place in what passes for ML these days. Folks can’t Rao Blackwellize for shit, how can you expect a Fisher Information matrix from them ?

it_does_follow 5y ago
I think Bishop et al. WIP book Model-Based Machine Learning[0] is a nice step in the right direction. Honestly the most important thing missing from ML that stats has is the idea that your model is a model of something. That how you construct a problem mathematically says something about how you believe the world works. Then we can ask all sorts of detailed question about "how good is this model and what does it tell me?" I'm not sure this will ever dominate. As much as I love Bayesian approaches I sort of feel there is a push to make them ever more byzantine, recreating all of the original critiques of where frequentist stats had gone wrong. So essentially we're just seeing a different orthodoxy dominant thinking with all of the same trapping of the previous orthodoxy. 0. https://www.mbmlbook.com/ https://www.mbmlbook.com/
kuloku 5y ago
What would you advise to ML professionals to do to improve their knowledge of statistics? Some recommended books?
jstx1 5y ago
Wait, what’s the problem with people not knowing things that they don’t need to know? This just comes across as being bitter that self taught people exist, or that other people are somehow encroaching on your field.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  I think your comment does what the OP complains about, regarding gatekeeping etc. I don't know about OP, whose comment I find a little harsh, but personally I'm always frustrated a bit and despairing a bit when I realise how poor the background is of the average machine learning researcher today, i.e. of my generation. Sometimes it's like nothing matters other than the chance that Google or Facebook will want to hire someone with a certain skillset and any knowledge that isn't absolutely essential to getting that skillset, is irrelevant. Who said "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it"? In research that means being oblivious of the trials and tribulations of previous generations of researchers and then falling down the same pits that they did. See for example how deep learning models today are criticised for being "brittle", a criticism that was last levelled against expert systems, and for similar, although superficially different, reasons. Why can't we ever learn?
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > I think your comment does what the OP complains about, regarding gatekeeping etc. Oh absolutely, that's how I intended it. I don't think that preemptively calling out people's reaction gives the parent comment a pass on gatekeeping. Your concern about poor background... it's only a problem for people who are jumping into things without the prerequisite background and they aren't learning fast enough. But modern deep learning is much more empirical - there are a few building blocks and people are trying out different things to see how they perform. I don't get why we need to look down on people for not knowing things that they don't need to know. If there was some magic that comes from knowing much more statistics, then the researchers who do would be outperforming the rest of the field by a lot but I don't think that's the case.
    - 5y ago

by dxbydt 5y ago

it_does_follow 5y ago

I think Bishop et al. WIP book Model-Based Machine Learning[0] is a nice step in the right direction. Honestly the most important thing missing from ML that stats has is the idea that your model is a model of something. That how you construct a problem mathematically says something about how you believe the world works. Then we can ask all sorts of detailed question about "how good is this model and what does it tell me?" I'm not sure this will ever dominate. As much as I love Bayesian approaches I sort of feel there is a push to make them ever more byzantine, recreating all of the original critiques of where frequentist stats had gone wrong. So essentially we're just seeing a different orthodoxy dominant thinking with all of the same trapping of the previous orthodoxy. 0. https://www.mbmlbook.com/ https://www.mbmlbook.com/

kuloku 5y ago

What would you advise to ML professionals to do to improve their knowledge of statistics? Some recommended books?

jstx1 5y ago

Wait, what’s the problem with people not knowing things that they don’t need to know? This just comes across as being bitter that self taught people exist, or that other people are somehow encroaching on your field.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I think your comment does what the OP complains about, regarding gatekeeping etc. I don't know about OP, whose comment I find a little harsh, but personally I'm always frustrated a bit and despairing a bit when I realise how poor the background is of the average machine learning researcher today, i.e. of my generation. Sometimes it's like nothing matters other than the chance that Google or Facebook will want to hire someone with a certain skillset and any knowledge that isn't absolutely essential to getting that skillset, is irrelevant. Who said "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it"? In research that means being oblivious of the trials and tribulations of previous generations of researchers and then falling down the same pits that they did. See for example how deep learning models today are criticised for being "brittle", a criticism that was last levelled against expert systems, and for similar, although superficially different, reasons. Why can't we ever learn?
- jstx1 5y ago
  > I think your comment does what the OP complains about, regarding gatekeeping etc. Oh absolutely, that's how I intended it. I don't think that preemptively calling out people's reaction gives the parent comment a pass on gatekeeping. Your concern about poor background... it's only a problem for people who are jumping into things without the prerequisite background and they aren't learning fast enough. But modern deep learning is much more empirical - there are a few building blocks and people are trying out different things to see how they perform. I don't get why we need to look down on people for not knowing things that they don't need to know. If there was some magic that comes from knowing much more statistics, then the researchers who do would be outperforming the rest of the field by a lot but I don't think that's the case.
  - 5y ago