7 ms·

What's up with all these contrarian fuckhead comments? Obviously no one has any family in Ukraine.

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
Because the country I am living in, the U.S., played a huge part in instigating Putin's war crimes against the people (not the politicians and Neo-nazi's) of Ukraine. I am anti-war, and my country is installing war and conflict in several places. So there is my reason.
- throwoutway 5y ago
  > “huge part” That’s fairly doubtful. There’s some proponents of the NATO-provocation theory but geopolitics is way more complicated than than a single indicator. Putin would still have invaded if the US was an inept backwater that had no foreign policy
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    What were Russias wars since ussr collapse? - Chechnya (internal hence doesn't matter) - Georgia 2008 (after they aligned with the US and decided to join nato) - Ukraine 2014 (pretty much the same reason) - Ukraine 2022 (once nato-ukraine relationships were intensifying at unprecedented rate in 2021) All of these actions were reactions to what putin considers to be crossing of "the red lines" made clear like 20 yrs ago.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    You are assuming Putin would be the president of Russia if "The US was an inept backwater that had no foreign policy".
  - danbruc 5y ago
    How do you know that Putin would still have invaded? For this you first have to know why he invaded. The most plausible reason - at least to me - is what Putin himself said over and over again, Ukraine becoming a NATO member. There are certainly other things to be gained - Ukraine's oil and gas resources, Crimea with the strategically important naval base in Sevastopol, water supply for Crimea, easier to defend borders, protection of the Russian minority and probably more - but I don't think they carry as much weight as Putin's security concerns. This is not too different from the Cuban Missile Crisis. How would the USA react today if Russia attempted to put missiles on Cuba, for defensive purposes of course? Or better, how would they have reacted 15 years ago so that we keep the Ukraine conflict out of this thought experiment? In no way do I want to defend this war, I want to see Putin defeated as much as everyone else, but unfortunately this is what you get if there are incompatible interests and no one backs down or tries to reach a compromise.
    - throwoutway 5y ago
      > How do you know that Putin would still have invaded? For this you first have to know why he invaded. While I think it does play a part, that's not what their propaganda is even using as a reason. This indicates a multitude of reasons and not any one "excuse", which is my point
      - danbruc 5y ago
        Okay, fair point, why not be open about that reason? Maybe the people would not see this as sufficient reason, not perceive the NATO as a threat and back a war. In the west we have, for example, surveillance where the judgment between the state and the people do not really agree.
    - wuschel 5y ago
      > if there are incompatible interests and no one backs down or tries to reach a compromise. It is not only incompatible interests. Both groups of actors weigh the case of Ukraine differently. While Putin (et al) are ready to go to for for it, it does not seem to have the same level of priority for NATO countries/USA. One might even say that to a degree, USA is not aligned with the EU in this case (oil imports made by USA, Nordstream 2).
      - danbruc 5y ago
        I am not sure why NATO wanted Ukraine as a member, is there any strategic interest? Or was this more like whoever wants to join NATO can join, they are a sovereign state after all and can do what they want? US and EU are certainly aligned in some aspects, they oppose war in general and the resulting humanitarian crisis, they want to uphold international law, they want sovereignty respected, they do not want further escalation, but I would agree that the US could potentially profit from the situation when the EU adjusts its resource dependencies, especially oil and gas. But I am not sure if gains in specific areas are not offset by the consequences of the entire situation in general.
    - vandreas2 5y ago
      Nobody tried to install nuclear missiles in Ukraine and there are plenty of European countries that haven't joined NATO despite much closer ties to the west than Ukraine like Sweden and Finland. I think Ukrainians wouldn't even have considered that their ethnic brothers would attack them (and most ordinary Russians are probably still in denial about it) before Donbas in 2014 and last week which makes their joining NATO an absurdity, you don't need protection when you don't fear someone. Your neighbours joining NATO can be perfectly avoided if you stop invading them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
- AndrewDucker 5y ago
  If "This country might sign a defence pact against me invading" makes you invade then you want to invade.
  - danbruc 5y ago
    This is not how Russia perceives NATO, in their view Ukraine would not sign up for protection from Russia but for threating Russia.
    - vandreas2 5y ago
      They perceived that their ethnic brothers would join a defensive alliance against them? Is that extreme paranoia or were they planning to attack anyway and seized the chance now?
      - danbruc 5y ago
        Again, Putin does not perceive NATO as a defensive alliance, he sees it as an organization that aggressively spreads in order to increase the influence and power of the west and the US in particular. Putin is worried - whether justified or not - that US nukes will end up right at his borders.
        davorak 5y ago
        > Putin is worried - whether justified or not - That seems too strong a statement. Unless you have personal or expert insight you do not know Putin is thinking. > - that US nukes will end up right at his borders. I thought there was no real advantage to moving nuclear weapons close to borders any more. I am no expert, my impression was the static location made them vulnerable to attack and counter measures. Submarine launch platforms were the priority for this reason. If that's true then it would not make sense for Putin to have any real worry about this. Though it might make for a good public argument.
        danbruc 5y ago
- keewee7 5y ago
  You're repeating Kremlin lies. Nobody is responsible for this war except Russia.
  - danbruc 5y ago
    If the Cuban Missile Crisis would have ended differently, if Russia had not backed down and it would have turned into an armed conflict, who would have been responsible?
    - depressedpanda 5y ago
      That's not a valid comparison. Nobody tried to install nukes in Ukraine.
    - vandreas2 5y ago
      I don't think trying to join the EU and installing nukes is even remotely comparable.
      - danbruc 5y ago
        Joining the EU was not what Russia opposed, I think Putin even stated that he has no issues with that, it was joining NATO what Putin considered a security thread. So you have to think about the consequences of Ukraine joining NATO. There are NATO nuclear weapons in Turkey, I don't know where exactly, but Turkey is as little as 170 km (100 mi) from the Russian border, separated only by Georgia, which is also supposed to become a NATO member according to the Bucharest declaration. So is it really that hard to imagine that Russia might be worried about nuclear weapons at their borders? And I am no expert, I am not sure what kind of assets would be of the greatest concern, maybe it would be anti ballistic missile system weakening your nuclear posture, maybe it would just be a large number of tanks. So don't focus too much on me saying nuclear weapons but think more broadly about military assets in general.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-attack-unprovoked-lets-us-off-the-hook/ https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-attack-unprovoked-lets...
- vandreas2 5y ago
  Why didn't Putin resist to being forced by the US to commit war-crimes? Is he a weak US puppet or does he have no conscience?
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    It has no conscience, just like the U.S.
    - vandreas2 5y ago
      This narrative of a military superpower having no choice but to invade much weaker neighbours because it's being bullied by them is non-sensical but has a lot of appeal to people. The inherent contradiction in the rhetoric of being so strong that you 're being victimized by much weaker parties was really perfected by Trump.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        You’re naïve to think that Putin is invading a “weaker nation”. This is not about Ukraine. This is about the United States and NATO Encroaching Russia in Russia feeling like it has to defend itself. This is actually more about China and Russia than it is about only Russia. The United States is petrified that Russia and China will stop using the petrodollar.
      - yucky 5y ago
        There is Ukraine and there is Ukraine+NATO. In Russia's security interests, only the latter is worthy of war. Ukraine had a coup in 2014, installing an anti-Russian regime who then made overtures of joining with NATO (aka the US military cloaked in international "defensive" armor). This is why they responded in Crimea and now. This isn't happening in a vacuum.
  - sidibe 5y ago
    You might not have known this, but in this world only the Americans have free will. Not Eastern Europeans, not Putin. Everything else that happens in this world is just a reaction to the USA making the right or wrong decision. Apologies if you are not American and have just found this out. I can only hope this is softened by the possibility you don't have feelings
sidibe 5y ago
It's an underdeveloped theory of mind and refusal to see how any Eastern Europeans could form their own opinions
GoodJokes 5y ago
dang 5y ago
Please do not post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you're thinking that not many HN users have personal and familial links to the countries involved in this war, that is already completely mistaken. And the number of users who have enough of a personal connection to history to feel intense emotion about this is...approximately everybody.
- joeman1000 5y ago
  Sorry, I just hate how everyone has to be a contrarian here. My wife hasn’t slept properly in a week, her mother now lives in a bomb shelter in Chernigov. You can see why I’m pissed off when people try to support or justify Russia.
  - dang 5y ago
    Yes. I hear you. And it's awful.

Because the country I am living in, the U.S., played a huge part in instigating Putin's war crimes against the people (not the politicians and Neo-nazi's) of Ukraine. I am anti-war, and my country is installing war and conflict in several places. So there is my reason.

throwoutway 5y ago
> “huge part” That’s fairly doubtful. There’s some proponents of the NATO-provocation theory but geopolitics is way more complicated than than a single indicator. Putin would still have invaded if the US was an inept backwater that had no foreign policy
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  What were Russias wars since ussr collapse? - Chechnya (internal hence doesn't matter) - Georgia 2008 (after they aligned with the US and decided to join nato) - Ukraine 2014 (pretty much the same reason) - Ukraine 2022 (once nato-ukraine relationships were intensifying at unprecedented rate in 2021) All of these actions were reactions to what putin considers to be crossing of "the red lines" made clear like 20 yrs ago.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  You are assuming Putin would be the president of Russia if "The US was an inept backwater that had no foreign policy".
- danbruc 5y ago
  How do you know that Putin would still have invaded? For this you first have to know why he invaded. The most plausible reason - at least to me - is what Putin himself said over and over again, Ukraine becoming a NATO member. There are certainly other things to be gained - Ukraine's oil and gas resources, Crimea with the strategically important naval base in Sevastopol, water supply for Crimea, easier to defend borders, protection of the Russian minority and probably more - but I don't think they carry as much weight as Putin's security concerns. This is not too different from the Cuban Missile Crisis. How would the USA react today if Russia attempted to put missiles on Cuba, for defensive purposes of course? Or better, how would they have reacted 15 years ago so that we keep the Ukraine conflict out of this thought experiment? In no way do I want to defend this war, I want to see Putin defeated as much as everyone else, but unfortunately this is what you get if there are incompatible interests and no one backs down or tries to reach a compromise.
  - throwoutway 5y ago
    > How do you know that Putin would still have invaded? For this you first have to know why he invaded. While I think it does play a part, that's not what their propaganda is even using as a reason. This indicates a multitude of reasons and not any one "excuse", which is my point
    - danbruc 5y ago
      Okay, fair point, why not be open about that reason? Maybe the people would not see this as sufficient reason, not perceive the NATO as a threat and back a war. In the west we have, for example, surveillance where the judgment between the state and the people do not really agree.
  - wuschel 5y ago
    > if there are incompatible interests and no one backs down or tries to reach a compromise. It is not only incompatible interests. Both groups of actors weigh the case of Ukraine differently. While Putin (et al) are ready to go to for for it, it does not seem to have the same level of priority for NATO countries/USA. One might even say that to a degree, USA is not aligned with the EU in this case (oil imports made by USA, Nordstream 2).
    - danbruc 5y ago
      I am not sure why NATO wanted Ukraine as a member, is there any strategic interest? Or was this more like whoever wants to join NATO can join, they are a sovereign state after all and can do what they want? US and EU are certainly aligned in some aspects, they oppose war in general and the resulting humanitarian crisis, they want to uphold international law, they want sovereignty respected, they do not want further escalation, but I would agree that the US could potentially profit from the situation when the EU adjusts its resource dependencies, especially oil and gas. But I am not sure if gains in specific areas are not offset by the consequences of the entire situation in general.
  - vandreas2 5y ago
    Nobody tried to install nuclear missiles in Ukraine and there are plenty of European countries that haven't joined NATO despite much closer ties to the west than Ukraine like Sweden and Finland. I think Ukrainians wouldn't even have considered that their ethnic brothers would attack them (and most ordinary Russians are probably still in denial about it) before Donbas in 2014 and last week which makes their joining NATO an absurdity, you don't need protection when you don't fear someone. Your neighbours joining NATO can be perfectly avoided if you stop invading them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
AndrewDucker 5y ago
If "This country might sign a defence pact against me invading" makes you invade then you want to invade.
- danbruc 5y ago
  This is not how Russia perceives NATO, in their view Ukraine would not sign up for protection from Russia but for threating Russia.
  - vandreas2 5y ago
    They perceived that their ethnic brothers would join a defensive alliance against them? Is that extreme paranoia or were they planning to attack anyway and seized the chance now?
    - danbruc 5y ago
      Again, Putin does not perceive NATO as a defensive alliance, he sees it as an organization that aggressively spreads in order to increase the influence and power of the west and the US in particular. Putin is worried - whether justified or not - that US nukes will end up right at his borders.
      - davorak 5y ago
        > Putin is worried - whether justified or not - That seems too strong a statement. Unless you have personal or expert insight you do not know Putin is thinking. > - that US nukes will end up right at his borders. I thought there was no real advantage to moving nuclear weapons close to borders any more. I am no expert, my impression was the static location made them vulnerable to attack and counter measures. Submarine launch platforms were the priority for this reason. If that's true then it would not make sense for Putin to have any real worry about this. Though it might make for a good public argument.
        danbruc 5y ago
keewee7 5y ago
You're repeating Kremlin lies. Nobody is responsible for this war except Russia.
- danbruc 5y ago
  If the Cuban Missile Crisis would have ended differently, if Russia had not backed down and it would have turned into an armed conflict, who would have been responsible?
  - depressedpanda 5y ago
    That's not a valid comparison. Nobody tried to install nukes in Ukraine.
  - vandreas2 5y ago
    I don't think trying to join the EU and installing nukes is even remotely comparable.
    - danbruc 5y ago
      Joining the EU was not what Russia opposed, I think Putin even stated that he has no issues with that, it was joining NATO what Putin considered a security thread. So you have to think about the consequences of Ukraine joining NATO. There are NATO nuclear weapons in Turkey, I don't know where exactly, but Turkey is as little as 170 km (100 mi) from the Russian border, separated only by Georgia, which is also supposed to become a NATO member according to the Bucharest declaration. So is it really that hard to imagine that Russia might be worried about nuclear weapons at their borders? And I am no expert, I am not sure what kind of assets would be of the greatest concern, maybe it would be anti ballistic missile system weakening your nuclear posture, maybe it would just be a large number of tanks. So don't focus too much on me saying nuclear weapons but think more broadly about military assets in general.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-attack-unprovoked-lets-us-off-the-hook/ https://fair.org/home/calling-russias-attack-unprovoked-lets...
vandreas2 5y ago
Why didn't Putin resist to being forced by the US to commit war-crimes? Is he a weak US puppet or does he have no conscience?
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  It has no conscience, just like the U.S.
  - vandreas2 5y ago
    This narrative of a military superpower having no choice but to invade much weaker neighbours because it's being bullied by them is non-sensical but has a lot of appeal to people. The inherent contradiction in the rhetoric of being so strong that you 're being victimized by much weaker parties was really perfected by Trump.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      You’re naïve to think that Putin is invading a “weaker nation”. This is not about Ukraine. This is about the United States and NATO Encroaching Russia in Russia feeling like it has to defend itself. This is actually more about China and Russia than it is about only Russia. The United States is petrified that Russia and China will stop using the petrodollar.
    - yucky 5y ago
      There is Ukraine and there is Ukraine+NATO. In Russia's security interests, only the latter is worthy of war. Ukraine had a coup in 2014, installing an anti-Russian regime who then made overtures of joining with NATO (aka the US military cloaked in international "defensive" armor). This is why they responded in Crimea and now. This isn't happening in a vacuum.
- sidibe 5y ago
  You might not have known this, but in this world only the Americans have free will. Not Eastern Europeans, not Putin. Everything else that happens in this world is just a reaction to the USA making the right or wrong decision. Apologies if you are not American and have just found this out. I can only hope this is softened by the possibility you don't have feelings

sidibe 5y ago

It's an underdeveloped theory of mind and refusal to see how any Eastern Europeans could form their own opinions

GoodJokes 5y ago

dang 5y ago

Please do not post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you're thinking that not many HN users have personal and familial links to the countries involved in this war, that is already completely mistaken. And the number of users who have enough of a personal connection to history to feel intense emotion about this is...approximately everybody.

joeman1000 5y ago
Sorry, I just hate how everyone has to be a contrarian here. My wife hasn’t slept properly in a week, her mother now lives in a bomb shelter in Chernigov. You can see why I’m pissed off when people try to support or justify Russia.
- dang 5y ago
  Yes. I hear you. And it's awful.