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send message and then what? the propaganda there would tell that west is using any chance to put russia down and here is another example. People in the west a

send message and then what? the propaganda there would tell that west is using any chance to put russia down and here is another example. People in the west are too naive to realise that in russia no body asks what people think. The level of propaganda is so strong that people would believe whatever they are told. The idiocy of those in the west who think that russians can decide something once they face sanctions is overwhelming. In the very long therm it may be but thus completely inadequate measure in the moment. Another idiocy is to think that claiming that NATO isn’t the part of the conflict can prevent them to actually become a part of the conflict. The moment russia will decide they will invent the cause to attack just as they did with Ukraine.

tragictrash 5y ago
You are too naive to think the people can't see what's going on. Putin brought this on his people for some idealogic crusade. Not everyone will understand but some will.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  Sure, some will. But we've seen how well propaganda works here in the US over the last 6 years, I feel less and less and certain that we'll be able to agree on a common reality here at home. The number of people that still argue about how the last election was stolen just blows my mind.
  - boplicity 5y ago
    The vast majority of Republicans approve of Trump. In other words, they approve of perpetual, blatant dishonesty, or at least don't think it is important enough to change their opinion. Very disheartening.
    - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
      >”In other words, they approve of perpetual, blatant dishonesty, or at least don't think it is important enough to change their opinion.” Or it’s the case that they see the other side as being perpetually and blatantly dishonest. Edit: Which is more likely, one political faction is objectively correct and the other is objectively wrong, or that partisan people view the world in such a way that their own side isn’t lying and the other is? If you wonder how such people can approve of lies and blatant dishonesty it’s because they fundamentally don’t see such things as lies to begin with. They see it as the truth.
      - boplicity 5y ago
        > Or it’s the case that they see the other side as being perpetually and blatantly dishonest. That's a logical fallacy. One's honesty has nothing to do with whether or not other people are honest. It turns out you can actually disapprove of all dishonest people, no matter whether other people are dishonest too.
  - dkn775 5y ago
    Look at how uniform the Ukrainian coverage is if you think we can’t agree on a common reality. In principle I am pro Ukrainian I guess, although the gas prices are pissing me off, it’s too obvious to see the uniform lack of anything but one side story being told everywhere online and in media
    - thr0wawayf00 5y ago
      Can you elaborate on this? I've seen a lot of reporting across various outlets on how Ukraine is impacting the markets. What is the side of the Ukraine conflict that you're not seeing being reported right now that you wish would be? Edit: some examples Fox News: https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/gas-prices-ukraine-russia https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/gas-prices-ukraine-russi... CBS: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gas-prices-5-dollars-gallon-russia-ukraine-oil/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gas-prices-5-dollars-gallon-rus... CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/how-the-ukraine-russia-conflict-may-hit-your-wallet.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/how-the-ukraine-russia-confl... USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/03/03/gas-prices-ukraine-russia-war/9358786002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/03/03/gas-prices-u... This isn't exhaustive but I tried to cover the main political spectrum here.
      - dkn775 5y ago
        Thanks for the links. Mainly mean that a uniform perspective of the situation is being communicated to US citizens. I don’t know if Russia has any legitimate reasons (maybe rational is the better word) because everything is painting the invasion from one perspective. Therefore most us citizens likely believe one form of reality on the issue. Just makes me feel a little uneasy to see everything from every news source having the same general point of Russia bad Ukraine good. Because it illustrates the power still held over US citizenry. The unease is because said uniformity makes me believe there is a form of propaganda inlaid with the news US citizens are receiving on the issue - even if I am unsure of the characteristics of it. Hopefully my point makes sense.
        thr0wawayf00 5y ago
severino 5y ago
> the propaganda there would tell that west is using any chance to put russia down and here is another example Aren't we?
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  russians have worked very hard to deserve such attitude. let’s not swap the cause and effect. btw sending ballistic rockets to bomb Kiev’s population is hardly justified by anything anyway.
- mlindner 5y ago
  No we are not. And this absurd fake news that the west is responsible needs to end.
  - severino 5y ago
    Well, I asked because in the face of similar events, I never remember a reaction as strong as the one that we are adopting against Russia. So I think it indeed has something to do with Russia, and not with the event itself.
    - justinpowers 5y ago
      Similar events? Please specify at least a couple of the similar events you have in mind…
      - severino 5y ago
        2003 invasion of Iraq, just to give a recent example?
        mlindner 5y ago
        2003 invasion of Iraq happened largely in the desert. It was also done relatively quickly and didn't level huge portions of the cities like is being done in Ukraine right now. This is what Russia is doing to several Ukrainian cities right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grozny,_the_capital_city_of_Chechnya,_in_March_1995_during_the_Second_Russo-Chechen_War.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grozny,_the_capital_city_...
will4274 5y ago
> no body asks what people think. The level of propaganda is so strong that people would believe whatever they are told. In my experience, these statements are contradictory. When nobody asks what the people think, the people notice, believe little, and keep their own thoughts close.
Etherlord87 5y ago
As someone who is poorly informed on the subject, I already learned to not make such definitive statements. Before russian invasion I heard a lot of opinions that Russia will not attack Ukraine, as it makes no logical sense or because true invasions are surprise attacks, and yet the reality verified this kind of thinking. Now we hear how sanctions will not change russian opinions, but it seems these already started to change, as some cracks appear: some politicians speak against war, some oligarchs criticize putin, some Russians are also migrating to Finland [1], as well as a protest started in Nizhnekamsk [2]. This is not to say that you're entirely wrong, it indeed is very hard to convince someone as heavily indoctrinated as russian nation, but I think it is possible. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHglSTvgbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHglSTvgbI [2] https://twitter.com/ilya_shepelin/status/1500073553055657986?s=20&t=EsZANKS9Hf9VxlRo4Dq0DA https://twitter.com/ilya_shepelin/status/1500073553055657986...
justin66 5y ago
> Another idiocy is to think that claiming that NATO isn’t the part of the conflict can prevent them to actually become a part of the conflict. The moment russia will decide they will invent the cause to attack just as they did with Ukraine. To their credit, the NATO officials and European leaders who are normally prone to think this way are backing up their deescalatory talk with defensive troop movements and jet fighter deployments.
freetanga 5y ago
By your description seems idiocy is in the East, more than the West. They cannot think, so we are stupid for not adjusting to their limitations / conformity?

tragictrash 5y ago

You are too naive to think the people can't see what's going on. Putin brought this on his people for some idealogic crusade. Not everyone will understand but some will.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
Sure, some will. But we've seen how well propaganda works here in the US over the last 6 years, I feel less and less and certain that we'll be able to agree on a common reality here at home. The number of people that still argue about how the last election was stolen just blows my mind.
- boplicity 5y ago
  The vast majority of Republicans approve of Trump. In other words, they approve of perpetual, blatant dishonesty, or at least don't think it is important enough to change their opinion. Very disheartening.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
    >”In other words, they approve of perpetual, blatant dishonesty, or at least don't think it is important enough to change their opinion.” Or it’s the case that they see the other side as being perpetually and blatantly dishonest. Edit: Which is more likely, one political faction is objectively correct and the other is objectively wrong, or that partisan people view the world in such a way that their own side isn’t lying and the other is? If you wonder how such people can approve of lies and blatant dishonesty it’s because they fundamentally don’t see such things as lies to begin with. They see it as the truth.
    - boplicity 5y ago
      > Or it’s the case that they see the other side as being perpetually and blatantly dishonest. That's a logical fallacy. One's honesty has nothing to do with whether or not other people are honest. It turns out you can actually disapprove of all dishonest people, no matter whether other people are dishonest too.
- dkn775 5y ago
  Look at how uniform the Ukrainian coverage is if you think we can’t agree on a common reality. In principle I am pro Ukrainian I guess, although the gas prices are pissing me off, it’s too obvious to see the uniform lack of anything but one side story being told everywhere online and in media
  - thr0wawayf00 5y ago
    Can you elaborate on this? I've seen a lot of reporting across various outlets on how Ukraine is impacting the markets. What is the side of the Ukraine conflict that you're not seeing being reported right now that you wish would be? Edit: some examples Fox News: https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/gas-prices-ukraine-russia https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/gas-prices-ukraine-russi... CBS: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gas-prices-5-dollars-gallon-russia-ukraine-oil/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gas-prices-5-dollars-gallon-rus... CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/how-the-ukraine-russia-conflict-may-hit-your-wallet.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/how-the-ukraine-russia-confl... USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/03/03/gas-prices-ukraine-russia-war/9358786002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/03/03/gas-prices-u... This isn't exhaustive but I tried to cover the main political spectrum here.
    - dkn775 5y ago
      Thanks for the links. Mainly mean that a uniform perspective of the situation is being communicated to US citizens. I don’t know if Russia has any legitimate reasons (maybe rational is the better word) because everything is painting the invasion from one perspective. Therefore most us citizens likely believe one form of reality on the issue. Just makes me feel a little uneasy to see everything from every news source having the same general point of Russia bad Ukraine good. Because it illustrates the power still held over US citizenry. The unease is because said uniformity makes me believe there is a form of propaganda inlaid with the news US citizens are receiving on the issue - even if I am unsure of the characteristics of it. Hopefully my point makes sense.
      - thr0wawayf00 5y ago

severino 5y ago

> the propaganda there would tell that west is using any chance to put russia down and here is another example Aren't we?

lovelyviking 5y ago
russians have worked very hard to deserve such attitude. let’s not swap the cause and effect. btw sending ballistic rockets to bomb Kiev’s population is hardly justified by anything anyway.
mlindner 5y ago
No we are not. And this absurd fake news that the west is responsible needs to end.
- severino 5y ago
  Well, I asked because in the face of similar events, I never remember a reaction as strong as the one that we are adopting against Russia. So I think it indeed has something to do with Russia, and not with the event itself.
  - justinpowers 5y ago
    Similar events? Please specify at least a couple of the similar events you have in mind…
    - severino 5y ago
      2003 invasion of Iraq, just to give a recent example?
      - mlindner 5y ago
        2003 invasion of Iraq happened largely in the desert. It was also done relatively quickly and didn't level huge portions of the cities like is being done in Ukraine right now. This is what Russia is doing to several Ukrainian cities right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grozny,_the_capital_city_of_Chechnya,_in_March_1995_during_the_Second_Russo-Chechen_War.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grozny,_the_capital_city_...

will4274 5y ago

> no body asks what people think. The level of propaganda is so strong that people would believe whatever they are told. In my experience, these statements are contradictory. When nobody asks what the people think, the people notice, believe little, and keep their own thoughts close.

Etherlord87 5y ago

As someone who is poorly informed on the subject, I already learned to not make such definitive statements. Before russian invasion I heard a lot of opinions that Russia will not attack Ukraine, as it makes no logical sense or because true invasions are surprise attacks, and yet the reality verified this kind of thinking. Now we hear how sanctions will not change russian opinions, but it seems these already started to change, as some cracks appear: some politicians speak against war, some oligarchs criticize putin, some Russians are also migrating to Finland [1], as well as a protest started in Nizhnekamsk [2]. This is not to say that you're entirely wrong, it indeed is very hard to convince someone as heavily indoctrinated as russian nation, but I think it is possible. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHglSTvgbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHglSTvgbI [2] https://twitter.com/ilya_shepelin/status/1500073553055657986?s=20&t=EsZANKS9Hf9VxlRo4Dq0DA https://twitter.com/ilya_shepelin/status/1500073553055657986...

justin66 5y ago

> Another idiocy is to think that claiming that NATO isn’t the part of the conflict can prevent them to actually become a part of the conflict. The moment russia will decide they will invent the cause to attack just as they did with Ukraine. To their credit, the NATO officials and European leaders who are normally prone to think this way are backing up their deescalatory talk with defensive troop movements and jet fighter deployments.

freetanga 5y ago

By your description seems idiocy is in the East, more than the West. They cannot think, so we are stupid for not adjusting to their limitations / conformity?