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A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America. Not at all hard to believe that

A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America. Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie.

itsoktocry 5y ago
>A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. Are you actually claiming that the scale of absurdity between believing election fraud (something members of both parties claim, every losing election, going back decades[1]) and that Ukrainians are killing themselves, en masse, are remotely the same? 1. Here's Hilary Clinton continuing to make claims about 2016 in mainstream media: https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-electi...
- LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
  Come on man. His is an example of real life “if gold rusts, what then of iron?” If people with a free press believe propaganda and lies, what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine?
  - itsoktocry 5y ago
    >what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine? This is your error. They don't "only" have state-run propaganda, and these aren't a backwards, brainwashed, uneducated people.
    - tsol 5y ago
      Independent news sources are rare in Russia, especially with the recent law making "misinformation" a jailable offense with up to 15 years jail time. I'm not saying there isn't any other news sources, but it legitimately seems like you have to go well out of your way to find them. How many Americans are digging into different news sources to see if the narrative on Ukraine is true or if it's all a western farce? Just the same many Russians aren't double checking the narrative they're being fed
      - itsoktocry 5y ago
        Your last point I agree with: not many. I'm not in Russia, obviously, but from what I can gather from social media, although outside media is "banned", it's still easy enough to find. Similarly to how easy I can still find RT (or worse).
- tgb 5y ago
  Someone believing either the 2016 or 2020 US elections were “stolen” in any meaningful sense of the word would be under a similar level of propaganda to someone thinking that the Russian invasion is to stop Ukrainians killing each other, yes.
- parkingrift 5y ago
  Straw man. I said no such thing. Please respond to the text I actually wrote.
  - itsoktocry 5y ago
    I literally quoted you, and responded to it. Here it is again: "A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America. Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie." Believing in election fraud and believing that a population are coincidentally killing themselves during a military incursion are not remotely analogous.
    - parkingrift 5y ago
      Again, that’s not an argument I’ve made. Please respond to what I’ve written, not an imaginary argument you’ve decided to defeat.
      - itsoktocry 5y ago
        Hey, here's an idea: how about you actually clarify your point then, instead of repeating "that's not my argument". But for fun, once again, your statement appears to be: "if Americans can believe the 2020 election was stolen (the first sentence), then it's not a stretch to think Russians will believe the Ukrainians are killing themselves (the third sentence)." It's right there for everyone to read. So what are you actually arguing?
- shaky-carrousel 5y ago
  Yes, they can be pretty much the same. There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd. Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad. I remember a very suspicious suicide in Argentina, and how some media were theorizing that he killed himself to make the government look bad.
  - itsoktocry 5y ago
    >There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd. You believe that the Russians believe this about the Ukrainians? A people with whom they share much culture? >Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad. Yeah, it could say anything. How about demonstrating it does say?
lettergram 5y ago
> And that’s with free press in America. Part of the issue is it isn’t free. So many people were banned. News stories banned. Companies banned and dropped. When you get that level of censorship it creates a massive level of distrust. Further, what’s “truth” when the facts can’t be debated...
travisgriggs 5y ago
Segue here. I think it is time to rethink the term “free press”. In much the same way we had to wrestle with “free software.” Was it free as in beer? Or free as in speech? The internet press is more “free as in beer” than ever. It costs nothing. It is probably about as “free as in speech” as it ever was, the variety is a testament to that. But it is not free from influence. It is tied to a profit feedback motive more than it ever has been. Put words on a screen, optimize for profit yield. Until the “press” regains its freedom from this, it will not be free. It will be profit constrained. In a similar vein, I think it is silly we have social media. It’s profit media more than it is social.

itsoktocry 5y ago

>A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. Are you actually claiming that the scale of absurdity between believing election fraud (something members of both parties claim, every losing election, going back decades[1]) and that Ukrainians are killing themselves, en masse, are remotely the same? 1. Here's Hilary Clinton continuing to make claims about 2016 in mainstream media: https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-electi...

LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
Come on man. His is an example of real life “if gold rusts, what then of iron?” If people with a free press believe propaganda and lies, what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine?
- itsoktocry 5y ago
  >what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine? This is your error. They don't "only" have state-run propaganda, and these aren't a backwards, brainwashed, uneducated people.
  - tsol 5y ago
    Independent news sources are rare in Russia, especially with the recent law making "misinformation" a jailable offense with up to 15 years jail time. I'm not saying there isn't any other news sources, but it legitimately seems like you have to go well out of your way to find them. How many Americans are digging into different news sources to see if the narrative on Ukraine is true or if it's all a western farce? Just the same many Russians aren't double checking the narrative they're being fed
    - itsoktocry 5y ago
      Your last point I agree with: not many. I'm not in Russia, obviously, but from what I can gather from social media, although outside media is "banned", it's still easy enough to find. Similarly to how easy I can still find RT (or worse).
tgb 5y ago
Someone believing either the 2016 or 2020 US elections were “stolen” in any meaningful sense of the word would be under a similar level of propaganda to someone thinking that the Russian invasion is to stop Ukrainians killing each other, yes.
parkingrift 5y ago
Straw man. I said no such thing. Please respond to the text I actually wrote.
- itsoktocry 5y ago
  I literally quoted you, and responded to it. Here it is again: "A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America. Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie." Believing in election fraud and believing that a population are coincidentally killing themselves during a military incursion are not remotely analogous.
  - parkingrift 5y ago
    Again, that’s not an argument I’ve made. Please respond to what I’ve written, not an imaginary argument you’ve decided to defeat.
    - itsoktocry 5y ago
      Hey, here's an idea: how about you actually clarify your point then, instead of repeating "that's not my argument". But for fun, once again, your statement appears to be: "if Americans can believe the 2020 election was stolen (the first sentence), then it's not a stretch to think Russians will believe the Ukrainians are killing themselves (the third sentence)." It's right there for everyone to read. So what are you actually arguing?
shaky-carrousel 5y ago
Yes, they can be pretty much the same. There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd. Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad. I remember a very suspicious suicide in Argentina, and how some media were theorizing that he killed himself to make the government look bad.
- itsoktocry 5y ago
  >There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd. You believe that the Russians believe this about the Ukrainians? A people with whom they share much culture? >Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad. Yeah, it could say anything. How about demonstrating it does say?

lettergram 5y ago

> And that’s with free press in America. Part of the issue is it isn’t free. So many people were banned. News stories banned. Companies banned and dropped. When you get that level of censorship it creates a massive level of distrust. Further, what’s “truth” when the facts can’t be debated...

travisgriggs 5y ago

Segue here. I think it is time to rethink the term “free press”. In much the same way we had to wrestle with “free software.” Was it free as in beer? Or free as in speech? The internet press is more “free as in beer” than ever. It costs nothing. It is probably about as “free as in speech” as it ever was, the variety is a testament to that. But it is not free from influence. It is tied to a profit feedback motive more than it ever has been. Put words on a screen, optimize for profit yield. Until the “press” regains its freedom from this, it will not be free. It will be profit constrained. In a similar vein, I think it is silly we have social media. It’s profit media more than it is social.