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Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant

by bryant 5y ago

Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. So the whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) doesn't really work because they're not analogous.

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.
- chess_buster 5y ago
  War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    - belter 5y ago
      Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
- bryant 5y ago
  > War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
    - rectang 5y ago
      Why can't Ukraine and other Eastern European countries drift westward if they want to?
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        They can. But it is not "Ukraine" that it drifting (and you make that sound like it is just the wind blowing them) westward. It is the U.S. and NATO that are PUSHING westward. In that case as well, why can't Russia "drift eastward?
        sidibe 5y ago
        It takes no pushing. Put yourself in the shoes of an Eastern European. Why would you not want to be part of EU and NATO... Staying in Russia's influence seems to just offer corruption and oligarchs, the countries that joined the EU are thriving relative to the others
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        Can you also put yourself in the shoes of a Ukrainian? And what is the difference between a Russian "Oligarch" and Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk? And the countries that joined the EU are thriving because the EU economically crushes the other countries through the IMF.
IYasha 5y ago
Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )
- eganist 5y ago
  I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.
ttybird2 5y ago
That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching

by bryant 5y ago

FollowingTheDao 5y ago

War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.

chess_buster 5y ago
War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  - belter 5y ago
    Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
bryant 5y ago
> War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
  - rectang 5y ago
    Why can't Ukraine and other Eastern European countries drift westward if they want to?
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      They can. But it is not "Ukraine" that it drifting (and you make that sound like it is just the wind blowing them) westward. It is the U.S. and NATO that are PUSHING westward. In that case as well, why can't Russia "drift eastward?
      - sidibe 5y ago
        It takes no pushing. Put yourself in the shoes of an Eastern European. Why would you not want to be part of EU and NATO... Staying in Russia's influence seems to just offer corruption and oligarchs, the countries that joined the EU are thriving relative to the others
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        Can you also put yourself in the shoes of a Ukrainian? And what is the difference between a Russian "Oligarch" and Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk? And the countries that joined the EU are thriving because the EU economically crushes the other countries through the IMF.

IYasha 5y ago

Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )

eganist 5y ago
I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.

ttybird2 5y ago

That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching