4 ms·

Came here to say the same thing. Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
- bryant 5y ago
  Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. So the whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) doesn't really work because they're not analogous.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.
    - chess_buster 5y ago
      War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        belter 5y ago
        Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
    - bryant 5y ago
      > War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
        rectang 5y ago
        Why can't Ukraine and other Eastern European countries drift westward if they want to?
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        They can. But it is not "Ukraine" that it drifting (and you make that sound like it is just the wind blowing them) westward. It is the U.S. and NATO that are PUSHING westward. In that case as well, why can't Russia "drift eastward?
        sidibe 5y ago
        It takes no pushing. Put yourself in the shoes of an Eastern European. Why would you not want to be part of EU and NATO... Staying in Russia's influence seems to just offer corruption and oligarchs, the countries that joined the EU are thriving relative to the others
  - IYasha 5y ago
    Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )
    - eganist 5y ago
      I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching
- dorfsmay 5y ago
  I agree 100% with you and have been bringing up Yemen in a lot of discussions, reminding people that part of why we care so much about Ukraine is the very real risk of WWWIII, part of it is that they are westerners living a similar life style as ours and we feel more connected, but that the same attrocities, the same Geneva convention violations happen in other current conflicts, and in some cases using US and European weapons. BUT, I'm hoping that if the world can get together and solve the Russian invasion of Ukraine regardless of treaties etc... This momentum can be carried to other conflicts. Part of the issue has been that everybody thinks nothing can be done to change, and I'm hoping that what is happening right now will show that this isn't true, as well that now that we see the red Cross tweeting about the Geneva Convention etc... People will be able to draw parallels between other current conflicts in the world an Ukraine.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    I think there is much more the U.S. people can do but most are just taking a one sided approach. But the people in the U.S. are not in charge anymore, democracy is dead and people are tired. Peace takes time and understanding and doing whatever it takes, even submission, to end hostilities. I can understand why Putin invaded Ukraine, just like I understand why the U.S. is invading Yemen. It doe snot mean either are right, but by being honest about it we can change our behavior and stop voting for and supporting all these war mongers that are more interested in Oil and selling weapons than they are about the common human.
keewee7 5y ago
Yesterday I saw claims that "half of Ukraine is pro-Russia" and the revolution against the corrupt dictator in 2014 was a CIA coup. The vast majority of Ukrainians are anti-Russia and pro-EU. Russia's actions since 2014 have also made them pro-NATO.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  I was writing about 2014 when the coup took place. There was a popular revolt, no one is disputing it. It was nationalistic (moskalyaku na gilyaku) as was the successing government which lead to antagonization of the east and crimea. Arguing against a coup is meaningless given the nuland tapes.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    If anyone is unclear what the Nuland tapes are: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
331c8c71 5y ago
- NoPie 5y ago
  Any proof that they are Ukrainian forces? The guardian reports that shelling is by Russian army: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-nato-gives-green-light-to-bombing-with-lack-of-no-fly-zone-says-zelenskiy#block-622372ab8f0872dfc8c9663f https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-uk...
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    they report ukranian side of the story. and nowhere the article says that this pov is supported by anyone independent.
    - scruple 5y ago
      In summary, you do not have sources for your claims and we're to take you at your word.
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite=1 https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite... https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395 I dont see how this is less trustful that the official ukranian side of the story ("ukranian officials say ..." in that article in guardian) reported by the Western media. It is a fact that ukranian forces are positioning themselves in the cities so I won't be surprised they did that to get a tactical advantage.
        scruple 5y ago
        Thank you for linking these.
        NoPie 5y ago

bryant 5y ago
Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. So the whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) doesn't really work because they're not analogous.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.
  - chess_buster 5y ago
    War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      - belter 5y ago
        Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
  - bryant 5y ago
    > War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
      - rectang 5y ago
        Why can't Ukraine and other Eastern European countries drift westward if they want to?
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        They can. But it is not "Ukraine" that it drifting (and you make that sound like it is just the wind blowing them) westward. It is the U.S. and NATO that are PUSHING westward. In that case as well, why can't Russia "drift eastward?
        sidibe 5y ago
        It takes no pushing. Put yourself in the shoes of an Eastern European. Why would you not want to be part of EU and NATO... Staying in Russia's influence seems to just offer corruption and oligarchs, the countries that joined the EU are thriving relative to the others
- IYasha 5y ago
  Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )
  - eganist 5y ago
    I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.
- ttybird2 5y ago
  That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching
dorfsmay 5y ago
I agree 100% with you and have been bringing up Yemen in a lot of discussions, reminding people that part of why we care so much about Ukraine is the very real risk of WWWIII, part of it is that they are westerners living a similar life style as ours and we feel more connected, but that the same attrocities, the same Geneva convention violations happen in other current conflicts, and in some cases using US and European weapons. BUT, I'm hoping that if the world can get together and solve the Russian invasion of Ukraine regardless of treaties etc... This momentum can be carried to other conflicts. Part of the issue has been that everybody thinks nothing can be done to change, and I'm hoping that what is happening right now will show that this isn't true, as well that now that we see the red Cross tweeting about the Geneva Convention etc... People will be able to draw parallels between other current conflicts in the world an Ukraine.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  I think there is much more the U.S. people can do but most are just taking a one sided approach. But the people in the U.S. are not in charge anymore, democracy is dead and people are tired. Peace takes time and understanding and doing whatever it takes, even submission, to end hostilities. I can understand why Putin invaded Ukraine, just like I understand why the U.S. is invading Yemen. It doe snot mean either are right, but by being honest about it we can change our behavior and stop voting for and supporting all these war mongers that are more interested in Oil and selling weapons than they are about the common human.

Yesterday I saw claims that "half of Ukraine is pro-Russia" and the revolution against the corrupt dictator in 2014 was a CIA coup. The vast majority of Ukrainians are anti-Russia and pro-EU. Russia's actions since 2014 have also made them pro-NATO.

331c8c71 5y ago
I was writing about 2014 when the coup took place. There was a popular revolt, no one is disputing it. It was nationalistic (moskalyaku na gilyaku) as was the successing government which lead to antagonization of the east and crimea. Arguing against a coup is meaningless given the nuland tapes.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  If anyone is unclear what the Nuland tapes are: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

331c8c71 5y ago

NoPie 5y ago
Any proof that they are Ukrainian forces? The guardian reports that shelling is by Russian army: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-nato-gives-green-light-to-bombing-with-lack-of-no-fly-zone-says-zelenskiy#block-622372ab8f0872dfc8c9663f https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-uk...
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  they report ukranian side of the story. and nowhere the article says that this pov is supported by anyone independent.
  - scruple 5y ago
    In summary, you do not have sources for your claims and we're to take you at your word.
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite=1 https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite... https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395 I dont see how this is less trustful that the official ukranian side of the story ("ukranian officials say ..." in that article in guardian) reported by the Western media. It is a fact that ukranian forces are positioning themselves in the cities so I won't be surprised they did that to get a tactical advantage.
      - scruple 5y ago
        Thank you for linking these.
      - NoPie 5y ago