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It's insane how much Kremlin apologia there is on HN. Some comments are saying we shouldn't put sanctions on Russia or support the Ukrainian resistance because

It's insane how much Kremlin apologia there is on HN. Some comments are saying we shouldn't put sanctions on Russia or support the Ukrainian resistance because it will prolong the war and civilian casualties. Putin and Lavrov have said that Ukraine is a historical mistake that should be undone. They want to assimilate Ukraine into Russia. Commit cultural genocide. How is the very existence of a nation and people not worth supporting?

fassssst 5y ago
Came here to say the same thing. Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  - bryant 5y ago
    Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. So the whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) doesn't really work because they're not analogous.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.
      - chess_buster 5y ago
        War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        belter 5y ago
        Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
      - bryant 5y ago
        > War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
        FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
    - IYasha 5y ago
      Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )
      - eganist 5y ago
        I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.
    - ttybird2 5y ago
      That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching
  - dorfsmay 5y ago
    I agree 100% with you and have been bringing up Yemen in a lot of discussions, reminding people that part of why we care so much about Ukraine is the very real risk of WWWIII, part of it is that they are westerners living a similar life style as ours and we feel more connected, but that the same attrocities, the same Geneva convention violations happen in other current conflicts, and in some cases using US and European weapons. BUT, I'm hoping that if the world can get together and solve the Russian invasion of Ukraine regardless of treaties etc... This momentum can be carried to other conflicts. Part of the issue has been that everybody thinks nothing can be done to change, and I'm hoping that what is happening right now will show that this isn't true, as well that now that we see the red Cross tweeting about the Geneva Convention etc... People will be able to draw parallels between other current conflicts in the world an Ukraine.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      I think there is much more the U.S. people can do but most are just taking a one sided approach. But the people in the U.S. are not in charge anymore, democracy is dead and people are tired. Peace takes time and understanding and doing whatever it takes, even submission, to end hostilities. I can understand why Putin invaded Ukraine, just like I understand why the U.S. is invading Yemen. It doe snot mean either are right, but by being honest about it we can change our behavior and stop voting for and supporting all these war mongers that are more interested in Oil and selling weapons than they are about the common human.
- keewee7 5y ago
  Yesterday I saw claims that "half of Ukraine is pro-Russia" and the revolution against the corrupt dictator in 2014 was a CIA coup. The vast majority of Ukrainians are anti-Russia and pro-EU. Russia's actions since 2014 have also made them pro-NATO.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    I was writing about 2014 when the coup took place. There was a popular revolt, no one is disputing it. It was nationalistic (moskalyaku na gilyaku) as was the successing government which lead to antagonization of the east and crimea. Arguing against a coup is meaningless given the nuland tapes.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      If anyone is unclear what the Nuland tapes are: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  - NoPie 5y ago
    Any proof that they are Ukrainian forces? The guardian reports that shelling is by Russian army: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-nato-gives-green-light-to-bombing-with-lack-of-no-fly-zone-says-zelenskiy#block-622372ab8f0872dfc8c9663f https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-uk...
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      they report ukranian side of the story. and nowhere the article says that this pov is supported by anyone independent.
      - scruple 5y ago
        In summary, you do not have sources for your claims and we're to take you at your word.
        331c8c71 5y ago
        https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite=1 https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite... https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395 I dont see how this is less trustful that the official ukranian side of the story ("ukranian officials say ..." in that article in guardian) reported by the Western media. It is a fact that ukranian forces are positioning themselves in the cities so I won't be surprised they did that to get a tactical advantage.
        scruple 5y ago
        Thank you for linking these.
        NoPie 5y ago
FollowingTheDao 5y ago
Sanctions and support are MUCH different than antagonizing Russia, a nuclear power, by doing the one thing that if the U.S. did not do would ease tensions greatly. You do not have to be a Russian apologist to understand that this is more complicated than bad vs good. And it was only a mistake because they trusted the US and Europe that they would keep the promise of not surrounding them with NATO forces. What Russia and Putin have done is nothing short of a war crime, just like when the U.S. invaded Iraq, but that does not mean we should blind ourselves to their side to do everything we can to avoid war. Peace come with understanding.
- will4274 5y ago
  And what of Russia's promise to not invade Ukraine? You know, the one that is recorded in a treaty and ratified by the leaders of each country. Unlike the promise you refer to.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    What was that treaty dependent on?
    - will4274 5y ago
      On Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        will4274 5y ago
        ?? The expensive part of a nuclear weapon isn't the panel you enter the codes on. It's the nuclear material. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... > Ahahhahahah.... You may want to take a minute to review the rules of this forum and try to comment in a more appropriate manner.
331c8c71 5y ago
> support the Ukrainian resistance because it will prolong the war and civilian casualties. It is just a fact. If you were able to follow some ukranian information channels not aligned with the current regime in Kiev you would see that this pov is not that uncommon. Speaking of the sanctions. What are the goals? To destroy Russian economy? OK, but it won't help with Ukraine right now. To prevent future "invasions"? OK, but russia will morph completely into smth like North Korea with nukes. Is it it helping anyone now?
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  People do not see that this is way bigger than Ukraine and it involves China and Oil and Gas and well as the fear of China and Russia not using the petrodollar anymore. The U.S. could not give two shts about the Ukrainian people. They re being used as pawns for a larger goal.
dang 5y ago
> It's insane how much Kremlin apologia there is on HN. If you think about it, that's really just a way of saying that the community is divided on this topic. Of course it is—any large-enough population sample is. It's the same with every divisive topic, and war is the non plus ultra of divisive topics. What's different in this case is not the mechanics of the discussion or the community, it's the intensity of feeling, which is inevitable and understandable. The two most important things to understand are (1) the vast majority of commenters here, even when they're repeating points derived from others, are holding their views in good faith—they simply have different backgrounds (personal, geographical, familial) than the people holding opposite views; and (2) if this community is to survive for its intended purpose, we need to remain kind and thoughtful with one another across differences. Yes, even during a war. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible to be firmly on one side of a war while remaining kind and thoughtful with the individual humans you encounter. Not only is it possible, it may even be one's human duty, at least for anyone who doesn't want to pour their little cup of personal influence into the ocean of collective violence. Be that as it may, it's definitely every HN commenter's responsibility, because it follows from the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), which are designed to keep this place alive for its intended purpose. Many years of experience have shown (1) and (2) to be true in general, and they're especially true now. If it seems otherwise, that's probably because HN, being a non-siloed site, lacks the homogeneous subcommunities that other sites partition themselves into with their follow lists, social graphs, subreddits, and so on. ("Homogeneous subcommunities" are what internet commenters like to call "echo chambers", and that is precisely what we don't have here. We are all in one large room together.) The irony is that HN ends up feeling more divisive precisely because it is less partitioned. It's necessary to understand this about HN or you will end up with quite a false picture [2]. I wrote a long explanation of this a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. It's even more true now than it was then. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silo%20by%3Adang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silo%20by%3Adang&dateRange=all... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22false%20feelings%20of%20generality%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

fassssst 5y ago

Came here to say the same thing. Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
- bryant 5y ago
  Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. So the whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) doesn't really work because they're not analogous.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008.
    - chess_buster 5y ago
      War against Hitler is not the same as Hitler's war against others. The U.S. and Europe have left Ukraine (no "the") alone, letting them elect their own people, since 2008.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        belter 5y ago
        Poking the Russian Bear and then letting Ukraine fend for itself... "Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
    - bryant 5y ago
      > War is war. That is the analogy, If you do not see that there is nothing more to say. Just because we are "the bigger bully" in a circumstance that is ok? Repeating: Though the support should certainly be there for all people harmed by interventionist policies, Ukraine's struggle against the Russian invasion is most relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. > And by saying it is "Ukraine's struggle" is simplistic and propaganda. The U.S. and Europe have been meddling in the Ukraine, installing their own people, since 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine It doesn't seem like you're engaged here in good faith. Cheers, I wish you the best.
      - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
        You seem to want to see a logical fallacy where none exists. > relevant to the world due to the potential for escalation to all-out nuclear war. The U.S. has done the very thing that started this escalation. There is nothing "whatabout" about that, it is one huge part to why this is happening. Now we are at this point, and we still do not want to deescalate. Do you see no other option other than sanctions and filling the Ukraine with more arms?
  - IYasha 5y ago
    Presidents/generals must go totally insane to even consider using atomic weapons. It's a no-win for everyone. And covid was worse than nukes. )
    - eganist 5y ago
      I hope you're right, but the problem is that we don't (and can't) know the states of mind of everyone in charge, and one of the world powers has demonstrated abject belligerence.
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    That was clearly a reply to "Russia is shelling civilians at random as these comments are being written.", it shows that said argument makes no sense as people have been posting stuff while their governments has been bombing civilians in other countries for ages. Considering that I will not agree that it is whataboutism.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      Thank you. I have heard this "whataboutism" defense brought out since I have been protesting all war since 1984. It comes from people who do not want to look inside themselves and it is the thing that makes me focus on working with people on a more personal level on themselves. -- When the great Tao is abandoned, charity and righteousness appear. When intellectualism arises, hypocrisy is close behind. When there is strife in the family unit, people talk about ‘brotherly love’. When the country falls into chaos, politicians talk about ‘patriotism’. -Dao De Ching
- dorfsmay 5y ago
  I agree 100% with you and have been bringing up Yemen in a lot of discussions, reminding people that part of why we care so much about Ukraine is the very real risk of WWWIII, part of it is that they are westerners living a similar life style as ours and we feel more connected, but that the same attrocities, the same Geneva convention violations happen in other current conflicts, and in some cases using US and European weapons. BUT, I'm hoping that if the world can get together and solve the Russian invasion of Ukraine regardless of treaties etc... This momentum can be carried to other conflicts. Part of the issue has been that everybody thinks nothing can be done to change, and I'm hoping that what is happening right now will show that this isn't true, as well that now that we see the red Cross tweeting about the Geneva Convention etc... People will be able to draw parallels between other current conflicts in the world an Ukraine.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    I think there is much more the U.S. people can do but most are just taking a one sided approach. But the people in the U.S. are not in charge anymore, democracy is dead and people are tired. Peace takes time and understanding and doing whatever it takes, even submission, to end hostilities. I can understand why Putin invaded Ukraine, just like I understand why the U.S. is invading Yemen. It doe snot mean either are right, but by being honest about it we can change our behavior and stop voting for and supporting all these war mongers that are more interested in Oil and selling weapons than they are about the common human.
keewee7 5y ago
Yesterday I saw claims that "half of Ukraine is pro-Russia" and the revolution against the corrupt dictator in 2014 was a CIA coup. The vast majority of Ukrainians are anti-Russia and pro-EU. Russia's actions since 2014 have also made them pro-NATO.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  I was writing about 2014 when the coup took place. There was a popular revolt, no one is disputing it. It was nationalistic (moskalyaku na gilyaku) as was the successing government which lead to antagonization of the east and crimea. Arguing against a coup is meaningless given the nuland tapes.
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    If anyone is unclear what the Nuland tapes are: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
331c8c71 5y ago
- NoPie 5y ago
  Any proof that they are Ukrainian forces? The guardian reports that shelling is by Russian army: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-nato-gives-green-light-to-bombing-with-lack-of-no-fly-zone-says-zelenskiy#block-622372ab8f0872dfc8c9663f https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/05/russia-uk...
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    they report ukranian side of the story. and nowhere the article says that this pov is supported by anyone independent.
    - scruple 5y ago
      In summary, you do not have sources for your claims and we're to take you at your word.
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite=1 https://yandex.ru/turbo/tass.ru/s/armiya-i-opk/13976985?lite... https://tass.com/society/1417395 https://tass.com/society/1417395 I dont see how this is less trustful that the official ukranian side of the story ("ukranian officials say ..." in that article in guardian) reported by the Western media. It is a fact that ukranian forces are positioning themselves in the cities so I won't be surprised they did that to get a tactical advantage.
        scruple 5y ago
        Thank you for linking these.
        NoPie 5y ago

FollowingTheDao 5y ago

Sanctions and support are MUCH different than antagonizing Russia, a nuclear power, by doing the one thing that if the U.S. did not do would ease tensions greatly. You do not have to be a Russian apologist to understand that this is more complicated than bad vs good. And it was only a mistake because they trusted the US and Europe that they would keep the promise of not surrounding them with NATO forces. What Russia and Putin have done is nothing short of a war crime, just like when the U.S. invaded Iraq, but that does not mean we should blind ourselves to their side to do everything we can to avoid war. Peace come with understanding.

will4274 5y ago
And what of Russia's promise to not invade Ukraine? You know, the one that is recorded in a treaty and ratified by the leaders of each country. Unlike the promise you refer to.
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  What was that treaty dependent on?
  - will4274 5y ago
    On Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons.
    - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
      - will4274 5y ago
        ?? The expensive part of a nuclear weapon isn't the panel you enter the codes on. It's the nuclear material. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... > Ahahhahahah.... You may want to take a minute to review the rules of this forum and try to comment in a more appropriate manner.

331c8c71 5y ago

> support the Ukrainian resistance because it will prolong the war and civilian casualties. It is just a fact. If you were able to follow some ukranian information channels not aligned with the current regime in Kiev you would see that this pov is not that uncommon. Speaking of the sanctions. What are the goals? To destroy Russian economy? OK, but it won't help with Ukraine right now. To prevent future "invasions"? OK, but russia will morph completely into smth like North Korea with nukes. Is it it helping anyone now?

FollowingTheDao 5y ago
People do not see that this is way bigger than Ukraine and it involves China and Oil and Gas and well as the fear of China and Russia not using the petrodollar anymore. The U.S. could not give two shts about the Ukrainian people. They re being used as pawns for a larger goal.

dang 5y ago

> It's insane how much Kremlin apologia there is on HN. If you think about it, that's really just a way of saying that the community is divided on this topic. Of course it is—any large-enough population sample is. It's the same with every divisive topic, and war is the non plus ultra of divisive topics. What's different in this case is not the mechanics of the discussion or the community, it's the intensity of feeling, which is inevitable and understandable. The two most important things to understand are (1) the vast majority of commenters here, even when they're repeating points derived from others, are holding their views in good faith—they simply have different backgrounds (personal, geographical, familial) than the people holding opposite views; and (2) if this community is to survive for its intended purpose, we need to remain kind and thoughtful with one another across differences. Yes, even during a war. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible to be firmly on one side of a war while remaining kind and thoughtful with the individual humans you encounter. Not only is it possible, it may even be one's human duty, at least for anyone who doesn't want to pour their little cup of personal influence into the ocean of collective violence. Be that as it may, it's definitely every HN commenter's responsibility, because it follows from the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), which are designed to keep this place alive for its intended purpose. Many years of experience have shown (1) and (2) to be true in general, and they're especially true now. If it seems otherwise, that's probably because HN, being a non-siloed site, lacks the homogeneous subcommunities that other sites partition themselves into with their follow lists, social graphs, subreddits, and so on. ("Homogeneous subcommunities" are what internet commenters like to call "echo chambers", and that is precisely what we don't have here. We are all in one large room together.) The irony is that HN ends up feeling more divisive precisely because it is less partitioned. It's necessary to understand this about HN or you will end up with quite a false picture [2]. I wrote a long explanation of this a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. It's even more true now than it was then. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silo%20by%3Adang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silo%20by%3Adang&dateRange=all... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22false%20feelings%20of%20generality%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...