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Putin has no right to conquer free nations. You are wrong to say that nobody wants to talk with him and understand his perspective, that somehow drinking a glas

Putin has no right to conquer free nations. You are wrong to say that nobody wants to talk with him and understand his perspective, that somehow drinking a glass with Putin you will understand that he just wants to make URSS great again and some millions of free people don't want to get sacrificed for it. Putin is not some new piece on the table and this is not his first move, he done many moves so far and somewhere a line must be drawn. I understand though that some people far away from this region would be happy to sacrifice Ukraine,Moldova maybe some Nordic countries just to keep Putin happy a few more years, but when do we say: enough, we don't want to do business with war criminals, we don't want to kiss killers asses anymore. Sure the innocent Russian citizens will suffer but that is preferable. What is your solution though? And what countries would you sacrifice? How many people would be enough for you to say "I won't send our kids to fight but maybe I could be OK not to do business with this criminals" ?

leobg 5y ago
Thanks for responding. First of all, I think we're on the same page in terms of what we want here. We want to end or, even better, avoid war. And we also do not want to encourage dictators, or let them get away with "salami tactics", i.e. taking one piece by force after another, each one small enough that nobody will bother to make them pay for it. And I can tell you: When I first heard about this invasion, I also immediately thought of Hitler and Czechoslovakia in 1938. Hitler, back then, had sensed that Britain and France like to talk of peace and of the souvereignity of nations etc.. But that, deep inside, they are really way too comfortable to get involved in yet another war. And Hitler guessed correctly. And I, too, thought that Putin might be thinking the same thing. That we are way too busy with Bitcoin and gender issues than to get our hands dirty for some slavic country that most of us couldn't find on a map. So I can actually relate to the thought that such action needs to have immediate consequences. Not just to put Putin back into line, but to also send a signal to any other dictator now or in the future. So if Putin was a Hitler 2.0, I'd agree with your prescription here. I just think two things are different: First, nukes. Even Churchill would have acted very differently if Hitler would have had nuclear weapons. That changes the entire equation. Outright conflict just isn't an option anymore in this situation. You have to find a compromise. Or, if the other party truly is a monster, like Hitler, and a compromise is completely out of the question (that is to say, not because of your own ego, or because it would mean sacrifices, but because it would mean an unbearable humanitarian disaster like the Holocaust), then you need to get this person removed, as fast as possible, AND ensure that nobody even worse is going to take his place. Secondly, I don't think Putin is a Hitler. Yes, he is a dictator. Yes, he has invaded a souvereign country. And yes, he puts political enemies in prison. But that is what dictators do. And to claim that any dictator is equal to Hitler is to belittle Hitler's crimes. You ask what I suggest as a way out of the current conflict. I have to say, I haven't paid any attention to Russia until a week ago. Until that time, all I knew about Ukraine was that there apparently are lots of beautiful women and that it's a popular place for digital nomads (a correlation that I'm sure is just coincidental). So I really do not have any "solution". But the most reasonable thing I have heard, so far, is the suggestion by Mearsheimer, that NATO and Russia agree that Ukraine will be a neutral state. Kinda like Switzerland. So no NATO membership. But also no Russian influence. Now I get that you could say, "But what if the Ukrainians want to join NATO? Isn't that their right?". But I mean, that's what a compromise is about. Everybody has to make some concessions. And, as far as I know, the main reason for Ukraine wanting to join NATO is as an endurance against a Russian invasion. Which such an arrangement would ensure just as well. If I would see that "our guys" are making such offers to Putin, but Putin turns them down -- either for no reason at all, or for reasons that are obvious excuses -- then I'd be a lot more convinced that de-escalation of the conflict actually wasn't possible. But I'm not hearing anything about such offers being made. I would assume that, if they were made, and Putin rejected them, it would be all over the news.

leobg 5y ago

Thanks for responding. First of all, I think we're on the same page in terms of what we want here. We want to end or, even better, avoid war. And we also do not want to encourage dictators, or let them get away with "salami tactics", i.e. taking one piece by force after another, each one small enough that nobody will bother to make them pay for it. And I can tell you: When I first heard about this invasion, I also immediately thought of Hitler and Czechoslovakia in 1938. Hitler, back then, had sensed that Britain and France like to talk of peace and of the souvereignity of nations etc.. But that, deep inside, they are really way too comfortable to get involved in yet another war. And Hitler guessed correctly. And I, too, thought that Putin might be thinking the same thing. That we are way too busy with Bitcoin and gender issues than to get our hands dirty for some slavic country that most of us couldn't find on a map. So I can actually relate to the thought that such action needs to have immediate consequences. Not just to put Putin back into line, but to also send a signal to any other dictator now or in the future. So if Putin was a Hitler 2.0, I'd agree with your prescription here. I just think two things are different: First, nukes. Even Churchill would have acted very differently if Hitler would have had nuclear weapons. That changes the entire equation. Outright conflict just isn't an option anymore in this situation. You have to find a compromise. Or, if the other party truly is a monster, like Hitler, and a compromise is completely out of the question (that is to say, not because of your own ego, or because it would mean sacrifices, but because it would mean an unbearable humanitarian disaster like the Holocaust), then you need to get this person removed, as fast as possible, AND ensure that nobody even worse is going to take his place. Secondly, I don't think Putin is a Hitler. Yes, he is a dictator. Yes, he has invaded a souvereign country. And yes, he puts political enemies in prison. But that is what dictators do. And to claim that any dictator is equal to Hitler is to belittle Hitler's crimes. You ask what I suggest as a way out of the current conflict. I have to say, I haven't paid any attention to Russia until a week ago. Until that time, all I knew about Ukraine was that there apparently are lots of beautiful women and that it's a popular place for digital nomads (a correlation that I'm sure is just coincidental). So I really do not have any "solution". But the most reasonable thing I have heard, so far, is the suggestion by Mearsheimer, that NATO and Russia agree that Ukraine will be a neutral state. Kinda like Switzerland. So no NATO membership. But also no Russian influence. Now I get that you could say, "But what if the Ukrainians want to join NATO? Isn't that their right?". But I mean, that's what a compromise is about. Everybody has to make some concessions. And, as far as I know, the main reason for Ukraine wanting to join NATO is as an endurance against a Russian invasion. Which such an arrangement would ensure just as well. If I would see that "our guys" are making such offers to Putin, but Putin turns them down -- either for no reason at all, or for reasons that are obvious excuses -- then I'd be a lot more convinced that de-escalation of the conflict actually wasn't possible. But I'm not hearing anything about such offers being made. I would assume that, if they were made, and Putin rejected them, it would be all over the news.