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Stop eastward expansion of NATO and make it clear Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. Just visualize what would American response would be if Mexico or C

by akg_67 5y ago

Stop eastward expansion of NATO and make it clear Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. Just visualize what would American response would be if Mexico or Canada considered joining a non-American Security Alliance. We already know how America will respond, when Venezuela brought up joining Russian security alliance, few years ago. NATO is a relic of Cold War and should have been disbanded when Cold War ended, instead it became a tool for American imperialism expansion, 19 members to 30 members. And, now we are seeing the poisoned fruits of how it is threatening world peace. Ukraine has become an American pawn in geo-political chess.

mupuff1234 5y ago
Do you think Putin wouldn't have thrown a tantrum if Ukraine wanted to join the European union? NATO is just an excuse, Putin is not interested in an independent Ukraine with western values. And if you don't think that Ukraine has a say it this whole mess then you are the imperialist.
- akg_67 5y ago
  Russia would have thrown similar temper tantrum as Americans when Venezuela brought up joining Russian Security Alliance. IMO, best course of action for Ukraine and the World is for Ukraine to stay independent and Neutral. I shudder to imagine what would the world look like if Russia loses and Ukraine joins NATO. North Korea will be proven right, only way to prevent US and NATO to bully, invade and destroy your country is to have a nuclear warhead on an ICBM pointed at a close US/NATO ally.
  - kristiandupont 5y ago
    Do you honestly think anyone wants to invade Russia? I have never seen any western politician, no matter how hawkish or anything, even slightly indicate something like that. Who would want that!?
  - mupuff1234 5y ago
    > North Korea will be proven right About what? No one is trying to invade neither Russia nor north Korea. If there is anything that was proven is that even if Ukraine would become a strong western ally, as is South Korea, still no one would attack Russia, just like no one is attacking North Korea. If anything Russia should be extremely wary about following the exact same path as North Korea, turning into a secluded prison state. It's all just extremely sad, and a lose for us all.
krzyk 5y ago
It is not a US tool, it is safeguard for countries that are next to aggressive neighbors, so they won't try things like in Ukraine now. Bullies can be stopped if enough sheeps stand together.
viraptor 5y ago
> Mexico or Canada considered joining a non-American Security Alliance The problem with those hypothetical situations is that currently they have no reason to do that. If they had reasons, they could outweigh what the US thinks about it - because the US is already the danger. Or to change that variable on the other side: if Russia want hostile in the first place, there would be no pressure for the expansion. "I increased bullying due to you joining the anti-bullying group" just shouldn't make sense when grown-ups are involved, and yet...
indigochill 5y ago
> Stop eastward expansion of NATO and make it clear Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. Yep, this is Putin's demand but it's a demand in bad faith as we'll get into in a minute. > Just visualize what would American response would be if Mexico or Canada considered joining a non-American Security Alliance. We already know how America will respond, when Venezuela brought up joining Russian security alliance, few years ago. This is just whataboutism. I don't know the details of Venezuela, but it's totally possible the US was in the wrong. Whatever the case, it has no bearing on whether Russia is in the right. > And, now we are seeing the poisoned fruits of how it is threatening world peace. This is the meat of my objection, since arguing NATO's a threat to world peace is empirically Russian nationalist nonsense. Between Russia and NATO, one has been militarily invading its neighbors for years now and the other is a purely defensive pact. Which is not to say that NATO is not an arm of American imperialism, but supposing a NATO member state wanted to start an aggressive war against Russia or its allies, NATO would not apply. When the US invaded Iraq, for instance (another popular whataboutism topic from Russian nationalists, but one with more merit than Venezuela IMO), they had to drum up support from allies without being able to invoke NATO. Those allies could have refused to support the invasion. > Ukraine has become an American pawn in geo-political chess. On this, however, we can agree.
- vandreas2 5y ago
  > Ukraine has become an American pawn in geo-political chess. Shouldn't we at least consider what's their view on this instead of painting everything as big power rivalry? Didn't they democratically choose to apply for EU membership? Considering neighbouring Poland has joined the ranks of high income countries and Ukraine has been stagnating under Russian protection can you blame them? Also, considering the blood ties between Russia and Ukraine before this war why would Ukraine consider joining NATO if it was not afraid of Russia (and still isn't apparently)? I think this line of reasoning of Ukraine pursuing NATO membership before all this started is a bit absurd. https://freepolicybriefs.org/2018/03/12/polands-road-high-income-country-status-lessons-learnt-not-countries/ https://freepolicybriefs.org/2018/03/12/polands-road-high-in...
  - indigochill 5y ago

by akg_67 5y ago

mupuff1234 5y ago

Do you think Putin wouldn't have thrown a tantrum if Ukraine wanted to join the European union? NATO is just an excuse, Putin is not interested in an independent Ukraine with western values. And if you don't think that Ukraine has a say it this whole mess then you are the imperialist.

akg_67 5y ago
Russia would have thrown similar temper tantrum as Americans when Venezuela brought up joining Russian Security Alliance. IMO, best course of action for Ukraine and the World is for Ukraine to stay independent and Neutral. I shudder to imagine what would the world look like if Russia loses and Ukraine joins NATO. North Korea will be proven right, only way to prevent US and NATO to bully, invade and destroy your country is to have a nuclear warhead on an ICBM pointed at a close US/NATO ally.
- kristiandupont 5y ago
  Do you honestly think anyone wants to invade Russia? I have never seen any western politician, no matter how hawkish or anything, even slightly indicate something like that. Who would want that!?
- mupuff1234 5y ago
  > North Korea will be proven right About what? No one is trying to invade neither Russia nor north Korea. If there is anything that was proven is that even if Ukraine would become a strong western ally, as is South Korea, still no one would attack Russia, just like no one is attacking North Korea. If anything Russia should be extremely wary about following the exact same path as North Korea, turning into a secluded prison state. It's all just extremely sad, and a lose for us all.

krzyk 5y ago

It is not a US tool, it is safeguard for countries that are next to aggressive neighbors, so they won't try things like in Ukraine now. Bullies can be stopped if enough sheeps stand together.

viraptor 5y ago

> Mexico or Canada considered joining a non-American Security Alliance The problem with those hypothetical situations is that currently they have no reason to do that. If they had reasons, they could outweigh what the US thinks about it - because the US is already the danger. Or to change that variable on the other side: if Russia want hostile in the first place, there would be no pressure for the expansion. "I increased bullying due to you joining the anti-bullying group" just shouldn't make sense when grown-ups are involved, and yet...

indigochill 5y ago

> Stop eastward expansion of NATO and make it clear Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. Yep, this is Putin's demand but it's a demand in bad faith as we'll get into in a minute. > Just visualize what would American response would be if Mexico or Canada considered joining a non-American Security Alliance. We already know how America will respond, when Venezuela brought up joining Russian security alliance, few years ago. This is just whataboutism. I don't know the details of Venezuela, but it's totally possible the US was in the wrong. Whatever the case, it has no bearing on whether Russia is in the right. > And, now we are seeing the poisoned fruits of how it is threatening world peace. This is the meat of my objection, since arguing NATO's a threat to world peace is empirically Russian nationalist nonsense. Between Russia and NATO, one has been militarily invading its neighbors for years now and the other is a purely defensive pact. Which is not to say that NATO is not an arm of American imperialism, but supposing a NATO member state wanted to start an aggressive war against Russia or its allies, NATO would not apply. When the US invaded Iraq, for instance (another popular whataboutism topic from Russian nationalists, but one with more merit than Venezuela IMO), they had to drum up support from allies without being able to invoke NATO. Those allies could have refused to support the invasion. > Ukraine has become an American pawn in geo-political chess. On this, however, we can agree.

vandreas2 5y ago
> Ukraine has become an American pawn in geo-political chess. Shouldn't we at least consider what's their view on this instead of painting everything as big power rivalry? Didn't they democratically choose to apply for EU membership? Considering neighbouring Poland has joined the ranks of high income countries and Ukraine has been stagnating under Russian protection can you blame them? Also, considering the blood ties between Russia and Ukraine before this war why would Ukraine consider joining NATO if it was not afraid of Russia (and still isn't apparently)? I think this line of reasoning of Ukraine pursuing NATO membership before all this started is a bit absurd. https://freepolicybriefs.org/2018/03/12/polands-road-high-income-country-status-lessons-learnt-not-countries/ https://freepolicybriefs.org/2018/03/12/polands-road-high-in...
- indigochill 5y ago