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Russia is indeed being a bully, the West (and not only) is terrified of this turn of events and the best course of action is to send as much equipment and weapo

Russia is indeed being a bully, the West (and not only) is terrified of this turn of events and the best course of action is to send as much equipment and weapons into Ukraine, apply catastrophic economic sanctions hoping the Russian citizens or oligarchs topple the dictator while officially not being at war. "A proxy war is an armed conflict between two states or non-state actors which act on the instigation or on behalf of other parties that are not directly involved in the hostilities. In order for a conflict to be considered a proxy war, there must be a direct, long-term relationship between external actors and the belligerents involved. The aforementioned relationship usually takes the form of funding, military training, arms, or other forms of material assistance which assist a belligerent party in sustaining its war effort." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war

NicoJuicy 5y ago
Terrified? I see much more cooperation now to say: "it's enough." Merkel led Germany always preferred trade before blaming. Increase trade with a malicious actor and it will work out in the end. There's a huge shift currently happening and if you didn't realize it yet. The position of Putin was one of weakness, not of strength and the west knows this. And it's not a proxy war, Russia is literally invading a country. Ukraine doesn't prefer the Russian model to keep people poor and stupid, so they wouldn't protest.
- 1_player 5y ago
  We are cooperating because we're terrified we have a madman at our doorstep. Are you saying Europe and US and NATO aren't scared shitless of what's going on in Ukraine? I am. Still, what's happening is the definition of proxy war, and I don't see the point of discussing semantics.
  - monetus 5y ago
    Why are you two speaking past each other? Russia has no proxy. NATO has begun treating Ukraine like a proxy, with them being frustrated by the delay. It can be a spectrum. Was the Vietnam war a proxy war against the ussr? One of independence? Are they mutually exclusive?
    - 1_player 5y ago
      Again, semantics. One side doesn't have a proxy, the other does. Should we really be splitting hairs on the correct definition?
      - monetus 5y ago
        No, that was my point
  - tromp 5y ago
    It fails the above definition as Russia is not acting on the instigation or on behalf of another party.
- rastignack 5y ago
  > Ukraine doesn't prefer the Russian model to keep people poor and stupid, so they wouldn't protest. The recent western model is one of the most debilitating model mankind has ever known.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    Richest people in the West aren't politicians even. Putin is the richest in Russia. I think that says more than what you are claiming ( without proof).
    - rastignack 5y ago
      It’s mainly the « stupid » part I’m questioning. And the politicians in the west are in the hands of the richest. I’m not saying Russia is better. Only that the west is dumber and dumber. Less and less educated. We should not be arrogant.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Euh, less educated? Seriously? Which metrics are you even using? It's not universities for sure. 50% of Russia is under propaganda and can't even talk English. The ones that can speak English and have engineering degrees, a large part of them are currently fleeing Russia. The other halve doesn't even know what is going to hit them ( jobs, economy, ... ). Favorite destination seems to be Europe, Canada, US, ... According to what I see in preferences of resumees. And I'm seeing a lot of resumees coming in. Turkeye and Georgia is pretty popular too, but I'd think it's easier to get there too ( flights), could be wrong about this though. Edit: removed links to 3 GitHub resumees of Russian engineers uploaded within the last 2 hours ( in English). From engineers that worked at zg. Google/Yandex and want to get out of the country.
        rastignack 5y ago
        > Euh, less educated? Seriously? I’m talking about huge IQ drops. About the language skills in all the western world. Just listen to cnn, fox news, to the charts’ lyrics and so forth. It’s staggering. Also, speaking English is in no way a prerequisite for a good education.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

Terrified? I see much more cooperation now to say: "it's enough." Merkel led Germany always preferred trade before blaming. Increase trade with a malicious actor and it will work out in the end. There's a huge shift currently happening and if you didn't realize it yet. The position of Putin was one of weakness, not of strength and the west knows this. And it's not a proxy war, Russia is literally invading a country. Ukraine doesn't prefer the Russian model to keep people poor and stupid, so they wouldn't protest.

1_player 5y ago
We are cooperating because we're terrified we have a madman at our doorstep. Are you saying Europe and US and NATO aren't scared shitless of what's going on in Ukraine? I am. Still, what's happening is the definition of proxy war, and I don't see the point of discussing semantics.
- monetus 5y ago
  Why are you two speaking past each other? Russia has no proxy. NATO has begun treating Ukraine like a proxy, with them being frustrated by the delay. It can be a spectrum. Was the Vietnam war a proxy war against the ussr? One of independence? Are they mutually exclusive?
  - 1_player 5y ago
    Again, semantics. One side doesn't have a proxy, the other does. Should we really be splitting hairs on the correct definition?
    - monetus 5y ago
      No, that was my point
- tromp 5y ago
  It fails the above definition as Russia is not acting on the instigation or on behalf of another party.
rastignack 5y ago
> Ukraine doesn't prefer the Russian model to keep people poor and stupid, so they wouldn't protest. The recent western model is one of the most debilitating model mankind has ever known.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  Richest people in the West aren't politicians even. Putin is the richest in Russia. I think that says more than what you are claiming ( without proof).
  - rastignack 5y ago
    It’s mainly the « stupid » part I’m questioning. And the politicians in the west are in the hands of the richest. I’m not saying Russia is better. Only that the west is dumber and dumber. Less and less educated. We should not be arrogant.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Euh, less educated? Seriously? Which metrics are you even using? It's not universities for sure. 50% of Russia is under propaganda and can't even talk English. The ones that can speak English and have engineering degrees, a large part of them are currently fleeing Russia. The other halve doesn't even know what is going to hit them ( jobs, economy, ... ). Favorite destination seems to be Europe, Canada, US, ... According to what I see in preferences of resumees. And I'm seeing a lot of resumees coming in. Turkeye and Georgia is pretty popular too, but I'd think it's easier to get there too ( flights), could be wrong about this though. Edit: removed links to 3 GitHub resumees of Russian engineers uploaded within the last 2 hours ( in English). From engineers that worked at zg. Google/Yandex and want to get out of the country.
      - rastignack 5y ago
        > Euh, less educated? Seriously? I’m talking about huge IQ drops. About the language skills in all the western world. Just listen to cnn, fox news, to the charts’ lyrics and so forth. It’s staggering. Also, speaking English is in no way a prerequisite for a good education.