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So if you are a young man in Ukraine and you have no stomach to get sacrificed in a geopolitical game between the West and Russia you should be given no way to

So if you are a young man in Ukraine and you have no stomach to get sacrificed in a geopolitical game between the West and Russia you should be given no way to opt out?

christkv 5y ago
That’s how those laws work yeah. In practice you won’t see military action unless you have previous training because you are a liability in combat. But you’ll for sure be building tank traps, filling sandbags, digging trenches and moving supplies.
sidewndr46 5y ago
That's how it works in the United States and basically every Western country. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it the law.
prox 5y ago
I don’t think calling it a geopolitical game is an accurate enough description. Yes there is meta level of geopolitics, but in the core this is an uncalled invasion by Russia. This is a culture that is being wiped out, because you know it’s going to be replaced by parrots from the Kremlin.
- random_upvoter 5y ago
  > uncalled invasion by Russia To be clear, in no way the bloodshed that Russia is causing in Ukraine can be justified. But to claim that this invasion has got nothing to do with the policy of the West to expand NATO in the direction of Russia is nonsense.
  - prox 5y ago
    NATO was giving guarantees to not expand to Ukraine. Yet still they got invaded. Proving once again why a NATO is necessary as a defensive alliance. Don’t think for a moment that if NATO was still in West Europe only that Russia wouldn’t steamroll the other eastern european countries when they have a chance. Russia already took other satellite states like Chechnya and Georgia earlier. Russia is an aggressor.
  - mechanical_bear 5y ago
    Is Ukraine a sovereign nation capable of entering into alliances as it wishes or is it not?
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      Clearly it is not capable as it is not in the NATO despite willing to do so.
igorkraw 5y ago
Note: the following is about how these young men get fucked by a system, not a justification of them getting fucked. Whether people like it or not, people talk about patriarchy also being bad for men, this is why. In the traditional value systems, as a man you have duties and roles you have to fill which aren't open to women which can be quite beneficial and if not might be valorised and mythologised - but there's a reason why it's set up like that. To create social and legal expectations that you "should" be strong and loyal and accept being fed into a warmachine. This becomes much less easy to sell in more equitable value systems because you have to either enforce it equitably (and then who's left in a war like this to escape and do the non combatant roles?). So if people don't like men being specifically singled out here, welcome to the feminist movement. Whether you think everyone or noone should be caught in this is a different question
The_rationalist 5y ago
PedroBatista 5y ago
He was telling you how it is not how we wish things were. You expect “the country” to do things for you ( while you pay taxes), now “the country” expects you to do things for it. That’s how it has been working for many centuries and applies to any society, even the stable and peaceful ones. Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go? :)
- 683686285 5y ago
  Why do you assume they expect “the country” to do anything for them? I certainly don't want “the country” to do anything for me and I don't want to do anything for “the country” that I wouldn't do for anyone. Also, anyone who want men but not women to be forced to fight is not a feminist.
- SyzygistSix 5y ago
  > Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go? I would guess many are fighting or supporting the war effort and their country in other ways. Also leaving with your kids doesn't mean one is less feminist, just that you want less of your family to die. Compliance doesn't equal agreement.
  - PedroBatista 5y ago
    I was being snarky, but I didn't equate "feminists" to females, let alone with children. It wasn't any statement with content, just a tease. While compliance doesn't equal agreement, let's not fall in the trap that non-compliance will solve the problem. The enemy ( which is what it is atm ) isn't some old fat C-suites that rollover when "their twitter explodes" and they have to work on the weekend instead of go boating.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
That statement considerable changes meaning when you know that the thing that failed was that they found a huge amount of gas in Crimea. It's a Russians invasion, not from the west. A country should be free to decide what they want.
drran 5y ago
Ukraine doesn't send conscripts to front line. They will service far front line. Ukraine had genocide (Holodomor) and bloody war less than century age, so they caused long plato in reproduction rate. Also, Ukraine has low fertility rate, so we don't want to lose young man and woman, because it hits hard. Many parents has one or two childs, so death of single son on girl causes lot of pain. If you have stomach for this game, then go to frontline and replace somebody young here, please, so (s)he will not die.
683686285 5y ago
Nobody should be forced to participate in a war. These men (and trans women who the state considers to be men) are being victimized twice. First by the Russian government who brought war to their home, and then again by the Ukrainian government who is forcing them to participate in that war. While forcing even more people to fight would obviously be even worse, the exclusion of one sex makes it feel worse because of its fundamental unfairness and the sexism it perpetuates. Perhaps it's illogical, but I actually feel better about being from a country with equal conscription where twice as many people are at risk of being forced to kill and die for the state, although I would of course prefer if the state relinquished its claim to its citizen's lives and gave everyone a choice.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  Being forced to participate in defense is different than being forced to participate in offense. Defending is like paying taxes. Everyone has to do their part, and the day of payment coming due for enjoying the citizenship is too late to decide "maybe I want to change citizenships". It's frankly dishonest to try to reduce and equate everything to "forced to participate in war".
  - 683686285 5y ago
    I fundamentally disagree. People don't choose where they are born and don't owe any aligiance to the state that happens to control that territory. Just because the local mob accepted my protection money and left me alone doesn't mean I have a moral obligation to defend them against a competitor.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      People don't even choose to be born at all. That isn't an argument. There is no place one even could choose to live that doesn't have some sort of communal shared structure and resources, which everyone benefits from, and everyone must contribute to, and so "didn't choose" is yet again, not an argument.
LinuxBender 5y ago
So if you are a young man Not just young men. If a man is between the ages of 18 and 60 currently then they would be defending their country. They are also accepting men from outside their country and have relaxed the visa requirements. no way to opt out Probably not legally. One would have had to find a way to flee the country while that was still possible. This is not unique to Ukraine. Many people fled the US that were opposed to participating in the Vietnam war. As a side note, I think it is about to get interesting in the United States of America as the Selective Service is slowly moving in the direction of accepting women into the process. [1][2] I would expect this to become a popular headline once ratified. [1] - https://www.sss.gov/register/women/background/ https://www.sss.gov/register/women/background/ [2] - https://rollcall.com/2021/10/05/congress-moves-toward-requiring-women-to-register-for-the-draft/ https://rollcall.com/2021/10/05/congress-moves-toward-requir...
foogazi 5y ago
There are limited choices due to the Russian invasion but they can always opt out

So if you are a young man in Ukraine and you have no stomach to get sacrificed in a geopolitical game between the West and Russia you should be given no way to opt out?

christkv 5y ago

That’s how those laws work yeah. In practice you won’t see military action unless you have previous training because you are a liability in combat. But you’ll for sure be building tank traps, filling sandbags, digging trenches and moving supplies.

sidewndr46 5y ago

That's how it works in the United States and basically every Western country. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it the law.

prox 5y ago

I don’t think calling it a geopolitical game is an accurate enough description. Yes there is meta level of geopolitics, but in the core this is an uncalled invasion by Russia. This is a culture that is being wiped out, because you know it’s going to be replaced by parrots from the Kremlin.

random_upvoter 5y ago
> uncalled invasion by Russia To be clear, in no way the bloodshed that Russia is causing in Ukraine can be justified. But to claim that this invasion has got nothing to do with the policy of the West to expand NATO in the direction of Russia is nonsense.
- prox 5y ago
  NATO was giving guarantees to not expand to Ukraine. Yet still they got invaded. Proving once again why a NATO is necessary as a defensive alliance. Don’t think for a moment that if NATO was still in West Europe only that Russia wouldn’t steamroll the other eastern european countries when they have a chance. Russia already took other satellite states like Chechnya and Georgia earlier. Russia is an aggressor.
- mechanical_bear 5y ago
  Is Ukraine a sovereign nation capable of entering into alliances as it wishes or is it not?
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    Clearly it is not capable as it is not in the NATO despite willing to do so.

igorkraw 5y ago

Note: the following is about how these young men get fucked by a system, not a justification of them getting fucked. Whether people like it or not, people talk about patriarchy also being bad for men, this is why. In the traditional value systems, as a man you have duties and roles you have to fill which aren't open to women which can be quite beneficial and if not might be valorised and mythologised - but there's a reason why it's set up like that. To create social and legal expectations that you "should" be strong and loyal and accept being fed into a warmachine. This becomes much less easy to sell in more equitable value systems because you have to either enforce it equitably (and then who's left in a war like this to escape and do the non combatant roles?). So if people don't like men being specifically singled out here, welcome to the feminist movement. Whether you think everyone or noone should be caught in this is a different question

The_rationalist 5y ago

PedroBatista 5y ago

He was telling you how it is not how we wish things were. You expect “the country” to do things for you ( while you pay taxes), now “the country” expects you to do things for it. That’s how it has been working for many centuries and applies to any society, even the stable and peaceful ones. Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go? :)

683686285 5y ago
Why do you assume they expect “the country” to do anything for them? I certainly don't want “the country” to do anything for me and I don't want to do anything for “the country” that I wouldn't do for anyone. Also, anyone who want men but not women to be forced to fight is not a feminist.
SyzygistSix 5y ago
> Now let me dose it with gasoline: Not many hardcore “feminists” around.. where did they go? I would guess many are fighting or supporting the war effort and their country in other ways. Also leaving with your kids doesn't mean one is less feminist, just that you want less of your family to die. Compliance doesn't equal agreement.
- PedroBatista 5y ago
  I was being snarky, but I didn't equate "feminists" to females, let alone with children. It wasn't any statement with content, just a tease. While compliance doesn't equal agreement, let's not fall in the trap that non-compliance will solve the problem. The enemy ( which is what it is atm ) isn't some old fat C-suites that rollover when "their twitter explodes" and they have to work on the weekend instead of go boating.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

That statement considerable changes meaning when you know that the thing that failed was that they found a huge amount of gas in Crimea. It's a Russians invasion, not from the west. A country should be free to decide what they want.

drran 5y ago

Ukraine doesn't send conscripts to front line. They will service far front line. Ukraine had genocide (Holodomor) and bloody war less than century age, so they caused long plato in reproduction rate. Also, Ukraine has low fertility rate, so we don't want to lose young man and woman, because it hits hard. Many parents has one or two childs, so death of single son on girl causes lot of pain. If you have stomach for this game, then go to frontline and replace somebody young here, please, so (s)he will not die.

683686285 5y ago

Nobody should be forced to participate in a war. These men (and trans women who the state considers to be men) are being victimized twice. First by the Russian government who brought war to their home, and then again by the Ukrainian government who is forcing them to participate in that war. While forcing even more people to fight would obviously be even worse, the exclusion of one sex makes it feel worse because of its fundamental unfairness and the sexism it perpetuates. Perhaps it's illogical, but I actually feel better about being from a country with equal conscription where twice as many people are at risk of being forced to kill and die for the state, although I would of course prefer if the state relinquished its claim to its citizen's lives and gave everyone a choice.

Brian_K_White 5y ago
Being forced to participate in defense is different than being forced to participate in offense. Defending is like paying taxes. Everyone has to do their part, and the day of payment coming due for enjoying the citizenship is too late to decide "maybe I want to change citizenships". It's frankly dishonest to try to reduce and equate everything to "forced to participate in war".
- 683686285 5y ago
  I fundamentally disagree. People don't choose where they are born and don't owe any aligiance to the state that happens to control that territory. Just because the local mob accepted my protection money and left me alone doesn't mean I have a moral obligation to defend them against a competitor.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    People don't even choose to be born at all. That isn't an argument. There is no place one even could choose to live that doesn't have some sort of communal shared structure and resources, which everyone benefits from, and everyone must contribute to, and so "didn't choose" is yet again, not an argument.

LinuxBender 5y ago

So if you are a young man Not just young men. If a man is between the ages of 18 and 60 currently then they would be defending their country. They are also accepting men from outside their country and have relaxed the visa requirements. no way to opt out Probably not legally. One would have had to find a way to flee the country while that was still possible. This is not unique to Ukraine. Many people fled the US that were opposed to participating in the Vietnam war. As a side note, I think it is about to get interesting in the United States of America as the Selective Service is slowly moving in the direction of accepting women into the process. [1][2] I would expect this to become a popular headline once ratified. [1] - https://www.sss.gov/register/women/background/ https://www.sss.gov/register/women/background/ [2] - https://rollcall.com/2021/10/05/congress-moves-toward-requiring-women-to-register-for-the-draft/ https://rollcall.com/2021/10/05/congress-moves-toward-requir...

foogazi 5y ago

There are limited choices due to the Russian invasion but they can always opt out