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Why the downvotes? Putin said as much in his invasion speech. Lukashenko's invasion map literally had Moldova as the next invasion target. Wake up people.

by csee 5y ago

NoPie 5y ago
We have surprising many Putin bots or just naive followers.
- ianai 5y ago
  Too bad icann didn't see this as a problem...imagine how the misinformation problem and cyberwarfare would diminish if they had been disconnected from the greater internet?
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  HN doesn't allow downvotes for accounts with less than 500 karma. While I don't doubt there's considerable Russian astroturfing on FB or Twitter, I'm pretty skeptical that the Kremlin employs similar tactics here. Spambots or paid shills would stick out like a sore thumb.
  - ttttttthu66ttt 5y ago
    They are sticking out like a sore thumb.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      I noticed that when I write something like this, I immediately get downvotes. Then gradually as discussion developed I get upvoted. To me it seems that there really are vigilantes who are doing this for whatever reason. The same could be said about certain articles. For example, that Facebook allows to praise the Azov battalion. It is a controversial thing that Ukrainians shouldn't be proud of, but it has been explained already how the praise is allowed – not with regards to neo-nazi ideology but only when mentioned as part of regular armed forces where this battalion was incorporated to control them. And yet despite the explanation this article come up again and again which makes me think for concerted effort to spread anti-Ukrainian narrative.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    It is not that simple. Even the Guardian noticed that antivax bots are now silent and have switched to pro-Russian narrative. And many naive people are following them. I used to be tolerant of antivax views on the grounds of the freedom of speech even though personally I am strictly pro-vax. Today I was unpleasantly surprised that they are now quoting all this rubbish how the war in Ukraine is the mistake of the west and globalisation etc. It was from people whom I would expect the least to take pro-Putin stance. I know they are not bots but how could they have changed their narrative overnight? I guess some people are really so gullible and easily absorb all rubbish whether it is antivax or pro-Putin. This is even more interesting that the vaccination coverage is Ukraine is really low (less than 50%) and there are many reasons for this, historic problems, distrust in authorities, weak medical system, and also antivax bots. Nevertheless, antivax and Ukraine independence are completely different issues. It does not make sense logically to connect one with another. And yet, a lot of so called contrarians do and it is not due to strong analytical skills.
    - dmpk2k 5y ago
      But the pro-vax people are talking about Ukraine too, so not exactly compelling evidence.
      - NoPie 5y ago
        I am sure there is a greater correlation between antivax and pro-Putin stance (except in Ukraine). Pro-vax people are majority and will have more divergent views about other issues so that doesn't mean much.
zthrowaway 5y ago
My guess for the downvotes is the claim this isn’t Biden’s fault. There’s a large camp of people who think the US is forcing Ukraine into this position by egging on Russia. I don’t think that’s the case personally. One thing I do think Biden did wrong was shut down the keystone pipeline and forcing us to buy oil from Russia as a result, which gave Russia a great way to fund a war campaign.
- XorNot 5y ago
  The US is still oil independent - the keystone pipeline didn't change a thing in that regard (how could it? If you can ship oil from Russia, you can ship it from slightly further north in your own continent. Oil is a fungible commodity though: the price is effected by global demand - as I noted in a previous thread on this exact subject, the idea of "independence" and "dependence" both mean nothing so long as private enterprise can own the resource and faces no restrictions on its export.
  - zthrowaway 5y ago
    Okay, makes sense. But how does that negate us giving Russia a war chest of money the past year?
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      They’ve been seizing all of that money. It’s mostly unavailable at this point.
    - rsfern 5y ago
      If you mean Russian oil exports, I thought the bulk of those went to Europe and China. It looks like 8 or 9% of US oil imports have been coming from Russia. About half our imports are from Canada. I’m not sure what percentage of US oil usage would be Russian import, but it doesn’t seem like “war chest” level? https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0... Edit: on further inspection, it does seem like a large dollar amount. And if you look at 2019 numbers, we imported a much larger fraction from Russia than in 2021. I still think much more Russian oil goes to Europe

Why the downvotes? Putin said as much in his invasion speech. Lukashenko's invasion map literally had Moldova as the next invasion target. Wake up people.

by csee 5y ago

Why the downvotes? Putin said as much in his invasion speech. Lukashenko's invasion map literally had Moldova as the next invasion target. Wake up people.

NoPie 5y ago

We have surprising many Putin bots or just naive followers.

ianai 5y ago
Too bad icann didn't see this as a problem...imagine how the misinformation problem and cyberwarfare would diminish if they had been disconnected from the greater internet?
honkdaddy 5y ago
HN doesn't allow downvotes for accounts with less than 500 karma. While I don't doubt there's considerable Russian astroturfing on FB or Twitter, I'm pretty skeptical that the Kremlin employs similar tactics here. Spambots or paid shills would stick out like a sore thumb.
- ttttttthu66ttt 5y ago
  They are sticking out like a sore thumb.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    I noticed that when I write something like this, I immediately get downvotes. Then gradually as discussion developed I get upvoted. To me it seems that there really are vigilantes who are doing this for whatever reason. The same could be said about certain articles. For example, that Facebook allows to praise the Azov battalion. It is a controversial thing that Ukrainians shouldn't be proud of, but it has been explained already how the praise is allowed – not with regards to neo-nazi ideology but only when mentioned as part of regular armed forces where this battalion was incorporated to control them. And yet despite the explanation this article come up again and again which makes me think for concerted effort to spread anti-Ukrainian narrative.
- NoPie 5y ago
  It is not that simple. Even the Guardian noticed that antivax bots are now silent and have switched to pro-Russian narrative. And many naive people are following them. I used to be tolerant of antivax views on the grounds of the freedom of speech even though personally I am strictly pro-vax. Today I was unpleasantly surprised that they are now quoting all this rubbish how the war in Ukraine is the mistake of the west and globalisation etc. It was from people whom I would expect the least to take pro-Putin stance. I know they are not bots but how could they have changed their narrative overnight? I guess some people are really so gullible and easily absorb all rubbish whether it is antivax or pro-Putin. This is even more interesting that the vaccination coverage is Ukraine is really low (less than 50%) and there are many reasons for this, historic problems, distrust in authorities, weak medical system, and also antivax bots. Nevertheless, antivax and Ukraine independence are completely different issues. It does not make sense logically to connect one with another. And yet, a lot of so called contrarians do and it is not due to strong analytical skills.
  - dmpk2k 5y ago
    But the pro-vax people are talking about Ukraine too, so not exactly compelling evidence.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      I am sure there is a greater correlation between antivax and pro-Putin stance (except in Ukraine). Pro-vax people are majority and will have more divergent views about other issues so that doesn't mean much.

zthrowaway 5y ago

My guess for the downvotes is the claim this isn’t Biden’s fault. There’s a large camp of people who think the US is forcing Ukraine into this position by egging on Russia. I don’t think that’s the case personally. One thing I do think Biden did wrong was shut down the keystone pipeline and forcing us to buy oil from Russia as a result, which gave Russia a great way to fund a war campaign.

XorNot 5y ago
The US is still oil independent - the keystone pipeline didn't change a thing in that regard (how could it? If you can ship oil from Russia, you can ship it from slightly further north in your own continent. Oil is a fungible commodity though: the price is effected by global demand - as I noted in a previous thread on this exact subject, the idea of "independence" and "dependence" both mean nothing so long as private enterprise can own the resource and faces no restrictions on its export.
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  Okay, makes sense. But how does that negate us giving Russia a war chest of money the past year?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    They’ve been seizing all of that money. It’s mostly unavailable at this point.
  - rsfern 5y ago
    If you mean Russian oil exports, I thought the bulk of those went to Europe and China. It looks like 8 or 9% of US oil imports have been coming from Russia. About half our imports are from Canada. I’m not sure what percentage of US oil usage would be Russian import, but it doesn’t seem like “war chest” level? https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0... Edit: on further inspection, it does seem like a large dollar amount. And if you look at 2019 numbers, we imported a much larger fraction from Russia than in 2021. I still think much more Russian oil goes to Europe