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Good points! My perspective: Ive been playing every now and again for at least 10 years (I don't remember how long) and despite not trying I obviously have imp

Good points! My perspective: Ive been playing every now and again for at least 10 years (I don't remember how long) and despite not trying I obviously have improved. I think I enjoy the game less now that I've improved, as overall the game seems more predictable, it seems more like chess as there are certain openings and 'life and death' scenarios that you will see again and again. Before, I loved throwing stones down, wondering 'what will happen if I do do this?' You say you "get more out of them" Can you elaborate on that? What are you getting out of your high level go playing specifically? I have improved my skills at non game things like programming and carpentry, and that's a totally different experience imo. I find progress at those things truly satisfying as opposed to my skill increase at Go which I do not. Key differences being.. #1 There is no number assigned to your current carpentry skill level, you just choose your own path from a practically infinite set. #2 They have actual practical consequences, eg. I used programming skill to make easy money + also realise my own game ideas and create artworks. I used carpentry to make the perfect storage unit for my sisters apartment + make my own ideal workspace.

morelisp 5y ago
I really struggle to respond here. If you're seeking some kind of... economically efficient? - output from improved go play, it's true you won't find it. I don't know how to argue the value of deepening skill in a game to someone who doesn't see that as inherently valuable, and I'm shocked to see this attitude from someone who makes games/art. Each game is a piece of art, and a game between two players of high skill level should have a place among humankind's great classical artistic outputs. It's a bit cliche of a recommendation at this point but maybe Hesse's The Glass Bead Game can help explain it. The fictional Glasperlenspiel makes explicit the level of discussion skilled players see in even the most abstract of real games. A novice player sees "raw" joseki, tsumego, etc; a more advanced player can read that as patterns of offense, defense, and zones of control; but the top players are reading the board in terms of ideas, experiments, challenges, proposals, negotiations, arguments, and jokes.
- everyone 5y ago
  Thats a good point, the playing of a game can be seen as an artform in itself. I makes games myself, so I guess I naturally give more credit to a games designer rather than it's players. Eg. It's hard to think of someone streaming a game on twitch as an artist. But people see great sportsmen are artists, I'm probably wrong and need to open my mind about that.
  - morelisp 5y ago
    A better analogy for a Twitch streamer would be someone performing an already-written play or piece of music. It's true a lot of games don't offer much room for expression on the part of the player, but that's often a stronger indictment of the game than of the player, and definitely not true of competitive abstracts.
indigochill 5y ago
> What are you getting out of your high level go playing specifically? Not the GP nor a particularly high-level player, but as a game develops there are opportunities to choose from several strong moves, the more skilled one is at go, the more able they are to follow a game and understand what the choices a player makes says about their style. e.g. when given a choice, do they make more offensive or defensive moves? Where is their focus? What might that communicate about their mindset that could perhaps be leveraged in the game? It's like language, where at a certain level you may be capable of following basic vocabulary and grammar, but with experience you learn to pick up on idioms, double-meanings, and so on, which adds another layer to what's being communicated. Even at professional-level play, where openings and patterns are the basic vocabulary, there's still room for stylistic variation.
NhanH 5y ago
> I think I enjoy the game less now that I've improved, as overall the game seems more predictable, it seems more like chess as there are certain openings and 'life and death' scenarios that you will see again and again. Before, I loved throwing stones down, wondering 'what will happen if I do do this?' How strong are you? I can imagine your description. Thinking about it, the game (seems to) become more narrow around 10k up to mid dan level. After that, it opened up again.
- everyone 5y ago
  I'm 6k on OGS.

morelisp 5y ago

I really struggle to respond here. If you're seeking some kind of... economically efficient? - output from improved go play, it's true you won't find it. I don't know how to argue the value of deepening skill in a game to someone who doesn't see that as inherently valuable, and I'm shocked to see this attitude from someone who makes games/art. Each game is a piece of art, and a game between two players of high skill level should have a place among humankind's great classical artistic outputs. It's a bit cliche of a recommendation at this point but maybe Hesse's The Glass Bead Game can help explain it. The fictional Glasperlenspiel makes explicit the level of discussion skilled players see in even the most abstract of real games. A novice player sees "raw" joseki, tsumego, etc; a more advanced player can read that as patterns of offense, defense, and zones of control; but the top players are reading the board in terms of ideas, experiments, challenges, proposals, negotiations, arguments, and jokes.

everyone 5y ago
Thats a good point, the playing of a game can be seen as an artform in itself. I makes games myself, so I guess I naturally give more credit to a games designer rather than it's players. Eg. It's hard to think of someone streaming a game on twitch as an artist. But people see great sportsmen are artists, I'm probably wrong and need to open my mind about that.
- morelisp 5y ago
  A better analogy for a Twitch streamer would be someone performing an already-written play or piece of music. It's true a lot of games don't offer much room for expression on the part of the player, but that's often a stronger indictment of the game than of the player, and definitely not true of competitive abstracts.

indigochill 5y ago

> What are you getting out of your high level go playing specifically? Not the GP nor a particularly high-level player, but as a game develops there are opportunities to choose from several strong moves, the more skilled one is at go, the more able they are to follow a game and understand what the choices a player makes says about their style. e.g. when given a choice, do they make more offensive or defensive moves? Where is their focus? What might that communicate about their mindset that could perhaps be leveraged in the game? It's like language, where at a certain level you may be capable of following basic vocabulary and grammar, but with experience you learn to pick up on idioms, double-meanings, and so on, which adds another layer to what's being communicated. Even at professional-level play, where openings and patterns are the basic vocabulary, there's still room for stylistic variation.

NhanH 5y ago

> I think I enjoy the game less now that I've improved, as overall the game seems more predictable, it seems more like chess as there are certain openings and 'life and death' scenarios that you will see again and again. Before, I loved throwing stones down, wondering 'what will happen if I do do this?' How strong are you? I can imagine your description. Thinking about it, the game (seems to) become more narrow around 10k up to mid dan level. After that, it opened up again.

everyone 5y ago
I'm 6k on OGS.