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I play go and I really don't understand most players, who seem to be desperate to improve at it. Go is an abstract game, played for fun. Go skill has limited to

I play go and I really don't understand most players, who seem to be desperate to improve at it. Go is an abstract game, played for fun. Go skill has limited to no applications outside of being good at Go. I don't think improving makes the game any more fun. If you're playing with a friend irl, if one of you gets too good ye will no longer be able to have fun games together. If you're playing online, then as you improve you will simply face opponents at the same improved level for eternity so nothing will change from your perspective. So, improving doesnt make the game more fun and can potentially make it less fun. Online go servers like KGS and OGS seem to be hyper focused around their ranking systems and almost every player is desperate to grind more rank. Ive always found this baffling but I have a theory. Maybe if you can put a number on someones skill at something, these people feel good if the number goes up cus they feel reassured they are improving at something in a measurable way? (Even if that thing is utterly trivial) Perhaps certain people need some kind of metric to feel good about themselves? Could also apply to the trend of acquiring excessive amounts of money or luxury goods.

Madmallard 5y ago
It's human nature to be competitive
kuboble 5y ago
It's a natural desire for many people to improve and get better at whatever they do. For some the process of getting better is fun, but not necessarily higher skill itself. >Perhaps certain people need some kind of metric to feel good about themselves. ?
morelisp 5y ago
> Go skill has limited to no applications outside of being good at Go. At the very least all games of this style are excellent working-memory exercises. Go also trains pattern recognition and balancing short vs. long term priorities. > as you improve you will simply face opponents at the same improved level for eternity so nothing will change from your perspective. No, the quality of games changes. They're more interesting, and you get more out of them. Just like most skill-based activities. > almost every player is desperate to grind more rank. It's true that KGS/OGS have a fair number of "leetcoder" equivalents but this book is probably the exact opposite of this attitude. The author's humble and funny, topped out at a relative low rank compared to his peers, and maintained strong ties to the amateur go scene during his time as a pro. He clearly loves the game more than "the system" and is trying to communicate not just how to play effectively but how the game fits into a life.
- everyone 5y ago
  Good points! My perspective: Ive been playing every now and again for at least 10 years (I don't remember how long) and despite not trying I obviously have improved. I think I enjoy the game less now that I've improved, as overall the game seems more predictable, it seems more like chess as there are certain openings and 'life and death' scenarios that you will see again and again. Before, I loved throwing stones down, wondering 'what will happen if I do do this?' You say you "get more out of them" Can you elaborate on that? What are you getting out of your high level go playing specifically? I have improved my skills at non game things like programming and carpentry, and that's a totally different experience imo. I find progress at those things truly satisfying as opposed to my skill increase at Go which I do not. Key differences being.. #1 There is no number assigned to your current carpentry skill level, you just choose your own path from a practically infinite set. #2 They have actual practical consequences, eg. I used programming skill to make easy money + also realise my own game ideas and create artworks. I used carpentry to make the perfect storage unit for my sisters apartment + make my own ideal workspace.
  - morelisp 5y ago
    I really struggle to respond here. If you're seeking some kind of... economically efficient? - output from improved go play, it's true you won't find it. I don't know how to argue the value of deepening skill in a game to someone who doesn't see that as inherently valuable, and I'm shocked to see this attitude from someone who makes games/art. Each game is a piece of art, and a game between two players of high skill level should have a place among humankind's great classical artistic outputs. It's a bit cliche of a recommendation at this point but maybe Hesse's The Glass Bead Game can help explain it. The fictional Glasperlenspiel makes explicit the level of discussion skilled players see in even the most abstract of real games. A novice player sees "raw" joseki, tsumego, etc; a more advanced player can read that as patterns of offense, defense, and zones of control; but the top players are reading the board in terms of ideas, experiments, challenges, proposals, negotiations, arguments, and jokes.
    - everyone 5y ago
kqr 5y ago
It sounds like you are, to some extent, conflating "getting better" with "improving ranking". I don't care particularly much what rank I have in any given context. (For it does vary by context. My rank at OGS, KGS, DGS, and the local club varies by so many stones that I no longer remember what it is anyway.) However, I do find that I enjoy the game more and more as I get better at reading and applying strategic principles. I can start to string together more complex plans and have a deeper "hand talk" discussion with my opponent.
tromp 5y ago
> I don't think improving makes the game any more fun. For me a big benefit of getting stronger, is that I can appreciate games between top players (and to a slightly lesser degree, between top AIs) that much more. Watching or playing through such a game while trying to predict and understand the moves they play gets more and more satisfying as you gain a better understanding of Go.
- shusaku 5y ago
  By the way, for watching games the “Redman Reviews” series by the AGA is great: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqpN3-2FP-kJcwdyujD8WKCin1kTIHx-u https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqpN3-2FP-kJcwdyujD8WKCin...

Madmallard 5y ago

It's human nature to be competitive

kuboble 5y ago

It's a natural desire for many people to improve and get better at whatever they do. For some the process of getting better is fun, but not necessarily higher skill itself. >Perhaps certain people need some kind of metric to feel good about themselves. ?

morelisp 5y ago

> Go skill has limited to no applications outside of being good at Go. At the very least all games of this style are excellent working-memory exercises. Go also trains pattern recognition and balancing short vs. long term priorities. > as you improve you will simply face opponents at the same improved level for eternity so nothing will change from your perspective. No, the quality of games changes. They're more interesting, and you get more out of them. Just like most skill-based activities. > almost every player is desperate to grind more rank. It's true that KGS/OGS have a fair number of "leetcoder" equivalents but this book is probably the exact opposite of this attitude. The author's humble and funny, topped out at a relative low rank compared to his peers, and maintained strong ties to the amateur go scene during his time as a pro. He clearly loves the game more than "the system" and is trying to communicate not just how to play effectively but how the game fits into a life.

everyone 5y ago
Good points! My perspective: Ive been playing every now and again for at least 10 years (I don't remember how long) and despite not trying I obviously have improved. I think I enjoy the game less now that I've improved, as overall the game seems more predictable, it seems more like chess as there are certain openings and 'life and death' scenarios that you will see again and again. Before, I loved throwing stones down, wondering 'what will happen if I do do this?' You say you "get more out of them" Can you elaborate on that? What are you getting out of your high level go playing specifically? I have improved my skills at non game things like programming and carpentry, and that's a totally different experience imo. I find progress at those things truly satisfying as opposed to my skill increase at Go which I do not. Key differences being.. #1 There is no number assigned to your current carpentry skill level, you just choose your own path from a practically infinite set. #2 They have actual practical consequences, eg. I used programming skill to make easy money + also realise my own game ideas and create artworks. I used carpentry to make the perfect storage unit for my sisters apartment + make my own ideal workspace.
- morelisp 5y ago
  I really struggle to respond here. If you're seeking some kind of... economically efficient? - output from improved go play, it's true you won't find it. I don't know how to argue the value of deepening skill in a game to someone who doesn't see that as inherently valuable, and I'm shocked to see this attitude from someone who makes games/art. Each game is a piece of art, and a game between two players of high skill level should have a place among humankind's great classical artistic outputs. It's a bit cliche of a recommendation at this point but maybe Hesse's The Glass Bead Game can help explain it. The fictional Glasperlenspiel makes explicit the level of discussion skilled players see in even the most abstract of real games. A novice player sees "raw" joseki, tsumego, etc; a more advanced player can read that as patterns of offense, defense, and zones of control; but the top players are reading the board in terms of ideas, experiments, challenges, proposals, negotiations, arguments, and jokes.
  - everyone 5y ago

kqr 5y ago

It sounds like you are, to some extent, conflating "getting better" with "improving ranking". I don't care particularly much what rank I have in any given context. (For it does vary by context. My rank at OGS, KGS, DGS, and the local club varies by so many stones that I no longer remember what it is anyway.) However, I do find that I enjoy the game more and more as I get better at reading and applying strategic principles. I can start to string together more complex plans and have a deeper "hand talk" discussion with my opponent.

tromp 5y ago

> I don't think improving makes the game any more fun. For me a big benefit of getting stronger, is that I can appreciate games between top players (and to a slightly lesser degree, between top AIs) that much more. Watching or playing through such a game while trying to predict and understand the moves they play gets more and more satisfying as you gain a better understanding of Go.

shusaku 5y ago
By the way, for watching games the “Redman Reviews” series by the AGA is great: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqpN3-2FP-kJcwdyujD8WKCin1kTIHx-u https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqpN3-2FP-kJcwdyujD8WKCin...